Asking the obvious: are animals conscious?

Retro

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Can you believe that despite obvious evidence that animals are conscious in the same way that humans are, so many people think they're not? I'm flabbergasted.

Anyway, new research has finally suggested that they are and convinced only some scientists. Damn, it needed in-depth scientific study and analysis to prove suggest the bleedin' obvious. Well done, guys. :rolleyes:

Charles Darwin enjoys a near god-like status among scientists for his theory of evolution. But his ideas that animals are conscious in the same way humans are have long been shunned. Until now.

"There is no fundamental difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and pain, happiness, and misery," Darwin wrote.

But his suggestion that animals think and feel was seen as scientific heresy among many, if not most animal behaviour experts.

Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds.

But if new evidence emerges of animals’ abilities to feel and process what is going on around them, could that mean they are, in fact, conscious?

 

live627

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I will try to provide some context here:


Religions claim that the conscience is a faculty of the soul, which only humans have. Animals are described as being instinctual creatures without souls and therefore no conscience. That's how I was taught as a tridentine Catholic.

Furthermore, man is unique in the animal kingdom in that they are both spiritual being and of the flesh. Spiritual, because we have a soul and are therefore aware of the existence of god. Flesh, because as meat bags, we share traits with animals. Our free will/intellect, a spiritual element, is in a constant war against primal carnal urges/pleasures.


I'm really rusty; it's been a while.
 

Tiffany

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I heard the same about animals not having a soul when my daughter was in Catholic classes. I was present in the classroom when the catechist told all of the students their pets didn't have souls or spirits. The children all became very upset including my dd.

I choose to believe that I will see my dear pets one day. At least it's comforting, maybe illogical, but that's what I'm going with.

Good explanation, live627.
 

Geffers

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I'm unsure about this, a dog certainly appears to have a soul, experience pleasure and love but I recall watching a wildlife program once featuring Wildebeest and their migration across the plains. There was a scene whereby they eventually reach a lake and instinctively drink the water. The crocs know this and have a wildebeest feast. Apparently, on occasions, and it was not known why but the croc will let a wildebeest go after practically drowning it. I saw the wildebeest shake itself after being released by the deadly croc then start drinking at the water's edge.

Now was the instinctive urge to drink greater than the danger, had the wildebeest forgotten the incident already, was any danger perceived?

Always sticks in my mind that one.

Geffers
 
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Geffers

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Various breeds of dogs are fascinating as to how they specialise, sheepdogs are amazing, shepherds tend to favour collies in UK, must admit I've never seen a German Shepherd shepherd sheep (almost a tongue twister). Labrador Retrievers are so funny, maybe one of the most docile dog breeds about. Saw a video once of a thief who broke into a garage to steal a pedal bike, along comes the friendly Retriever, tail wagging like fury. Thief actually takes time to pet and play with the dog then eventually rides off on the stolen bike. Dog watches with tail wagging. Then amusingly saw an old Indian railway video where a Labrador was used as a guard dog and saw one actually chase someone grabbing hold of their sleeve in a training exercise. A German Shepherd looks fierce, albeit they are great family pets, a Golden Labrador/Retriever looks like a lump of butter 😎
 

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Saw a video once of a thief who broke into a garage to steal a pedal bike, along comes the friendly Retriever, tail wagging like fury. Thief actually takes time to pet and play with the dog then eventually rides off on the stolen bike. Dog watches with tail wagging.
Oh, that's so facepalmy, love it. 🤦‍♂️ The most useless guard dog on earth. No treats for you today! :ROFLMAO:

Have you seen this article? I think you'll like it. @Astro What you too, being a dog person.

 

Astro What

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As most predators... if they are not hungry, they don't kill wantonly. Generally it's only humans that do that. Odds are the crocs had recently fed.
 

Geffers

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Tell me about it. "Big game" hunting and fox hunting are two despicable activities that come to mind. :mad:
Cats, regrettably do appear to kill things for amusement. Saw a cat recently stalking a pigeon, I shooed the pigeon away, cat seemed pi$$ed off. 😎
 

Retro

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Alas, the little cutenesses do sometimes. :( Doesn't seem to happen so much with the big cats like lions and tigers though.
 

Geffers

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Alas, the little cutenesses do sometimes. :( Doesn't seem to happen so much with the big cats like lions and tigers though.
No, odd that, wonder why domestic cats seem to have that issue.

Maybe as wild cats exert a lot of energy catching prey a home moggie merely exerts energy walking to the dinner plate.
 

Retro

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It could be exactly that: they don't have to hunt for their dinners so they have all this pent up energy for the hunt that they need to get out of their systems. Playing with them with toys helps, but can't eliminate it. I'll bet feral cats don't kill for the hell of it when they're full.

I still don't get how the biggest killers on the planet of the animal world are also the cutest! ❤️
 

Astro What

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Cats, regrettably do appear to kill things for amusement. Saw a cat recently stalking a pigeon, I shooed the pigeon away, cat seemed pi$$ed off. 😎
Even with the mice I've seen cats kill, they are usually going to sample them themselves or present them to their owner as a gift. Which is actually apparently part of the feline nature. I personally have never seen a cat simply attack another animal and walk off and leave it laying.
I'm not fond of cats (only had two in my entire life and they acted more like dogs than cats), so I don't pay a lot of attention to them other than to trap the ferals in the neighborhood and take them to the shelter.
 

Retro

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I'm not fond of cats (only had two in my entire life and they acted more like dogs than cats), so I don't pay a lot of attention to them other than to trap the ferals in the neighborhood and take them to the shelter.
Oh, shame on you for not liking cats! :p But I appreciate you rescuing them as that's the important bit, isn't it? Thankyou for this, legend. :cool:

How many cats do you think you've rescued this way?
 

Astro What

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In the last few months I've taken 11 to the shelter. Most of them don't end up getting adopted as you find cats running around everywhere locally. Seems nobody can take the time to spay or neuter their cats and they let them loose and then don't take care of the kittens that spawn. My neighbor was not even aware that her outside cat had kittens.
 

Retro

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Since we're talking about cats here at the moment, here's a couple of threads I started over at Feline Forums that I think people will find interesting.

@Geffers this one relates to your story about shooing a cat away from a potential kill. Well done you, thankyou.



Yes, of course it should! This would eliminate injuries and deaths to thousands of cats and local wildlife if people did this. Most cats can acclimatize to being indoors all their lives, so isn't such a big problem.

There's an infographic there listing the many dangers to cats allowed outside. When looked at like that, one can see that it's just not worth it.
 

Retro

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In the last few months I've taken 11 to the shelter. Most of them don't end up getting adopted as you find cats running around everywhere locally. Seems nobody can take the time to spay or neuter their cats and they let them loose and then don't take care of the kittens that spawn. My neighbor was not even aware that her outside cat had kittens.
Thanks for this. You've saved such a lot of misery and suffering by doing this.

Clueless neighbour though. 🤦‍♂️
 

Astro What

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Lately... most of them are becoming coyote food. Seems that they are easy prey for the coyotes. It's one reason I go out with the dogs in the evening/night and have some funky LED lights on them during the dark that tends to cause coyotes to shy away since it is not something they are familiar with.
 

Geffers

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Since we're talking about cats here at the moment, here's a couple of threads I started over at Feline Forums that I think people will find interesting.

@Geffers this one relates to your story about shooing a cat away from a potential kill. Well done you, thankyou.



Yes, of course it should! This would eliminate injuries and deaths to thousands of cats and local wildlife if people did this. Most cats can acclimatize to being indoors all their lives, so isn't such a big problem.

There's an infographic there listing the many dangers to cats allowed outside. When looked at like that, one can see that it's just not worth it.
People say zoos and circuses are wrong as animals kept in unnatural environment. Is keeping a cat indoors permanently similar? Not expressing my view, merely wondering. When people are imprisoned they want to escape. Yes, there are freedoms but is some danger the price we pay?
 

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People say zoos and circuses are wrong as animals kept in unnatural environment. Is keeping a cat indoors permanently similar? Not expressing my view, merely wondering. When people are imprisoned they want to escape. Yes, there are freedoms but is some danger the price we pay?
No, it's not the same for animals. I know people who successfully have an indoor cat and believe me he's very happy indeed in his cozy, safe environment, wanting for nothing. He doesn't understand that he's "imprisoned" for want of a better word.

Not all cats could adjust to this though, especially ones who have been used to the outside for a long time and perhaps have a bit of the feral about them. A sanctuary would be best for them where they could roam in a large outside area, fenced off from the outside world.
 

Retro

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Pretty sure many would beg to differ.

They can differ all they want, but I have the hard evidence to prove I'm right, as I explained in the rest of the post you just quoted an out of context snippet from. I've also said that not all cats are likely to take to this, so as you can see I'm quite balanced about this.

Oh and I know this cat very well. He's so happy and laid back.
 

Geffers

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They can differ all they want, but I have the hard evidence to prove I'm right, as I explained in the rest of the post you just quoted an out of context snippet from. I've also said that not all cats are likely to take to this, so as you can see I'm quite balanced about this.

Oh and I know this cat very well. He's so happy and laid back.
Interesting comment that They can differ all they want but I have evidence to prove I'm right. I'm pretty sure others would have their own evidence to prove they are right too.. Sometimes one has to weigh evidence that may suggest both sides may have some validity, which you did state by mentioning not all cats would take to it. I'm mixed about it, can see advantages of both sides, which is preferable I do not know but as I don't have a cat living with me I do not have to make that decision.

I wonder if a person born blind misses the benefit of eyesight, can you miss what you've never had? That too is open to interpretation as a person born disabled can miss being able bodied as they can see the difference.

Animals born into captivity know no better but they look out of windows, GF's cat in California is not allowed out, hawks and coyotes are a danger but it gets so excited when it sees birds, squirrels and rabbits outside the glass doors. Are we so adverse to danger nowadays that we give up the excitement of sensible danger. Could go off topic here so shall leave it at that.
 

Retro

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Interesting comment that They can differ all they want but I have evidence to prove I'm right. I'm pretty sure others would have their own evidence to prove they are right too.. Sometimes one has to weigh evidence that may suggest both sides may have some validity, which you did state by mentioning not all cats would take to it. I'm mixed about it, can see advantages of both sides, which is preferable I do not know but as I don't have a cat living with me I do not have to make that decision.

People can think they're right, but they may be affected by bias, or just not understand the evidence perhaps, which can throw them off. Did you read my post on Feline Forums that I linked to about the many dangers of letting a cat go out? It's very informative, especially the infographic that I've based it on.

I wonder if a person born blind misses the benefit of eyesight, can you miss what you've never had? That too is open to interpretation as a person born disabled can miss being able bodied as they can see the difference.

The short answer is yes, the most definitely can miss what they never had, in many, or most cases. I'd say where they wouldn't miss it is if they have some mental impairment where they remain baby-like and non-verbal their whole lives, living in blissful ignorance of their situation. In this case, their simple needs are met by their long-suffering parents. I used to know someone like this and it was such a sad thing to see and the strain on the parents was obvious.

Animals born into captivity know no better but they look out of windows, GF's cat in California is not allowed out, hawks and coyotes are a danger but it gets so excited when it sees birds, squirrels and rabbits outside the glass doors. Are we so adverse to danger nowadays that we give up the excitement of sensible danger. Could go off topic here so shall leave it at that.

Those animals are likely to be blissfully unaware as long as all their basic needs are met. For big cats for example, large fenced parks are enough to make them feel free and happy, leaving them clueless about their confinement.

The cat that I know, isn't even especially curious when the back door is open and he can smell the outside. Sure, if the door was just left open, he'd eventually be curious enough to step outside, but he's always locked away or held in arms when that door is open so it won't happen. Hence, this is an example of a cat that's perfectly happy with its confinement, not realising what it's missing. Since he's only got one eye and hence disabled, it's especially important to keep him indoors for his own safety. I doubt he could catch anything. ❤️

Oh, don't worry about being off topic at NZ. ;) As I've explained in the rules, it's the natural way that conversations ebb and flow, so I don't want to stifle it. Where it matters, I'll make adjustments, like all those Trump posts that I moved from one thread to the other yesterday, or gently steer people back to the subject. :)
 
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