Cancel Culture

[Nebulous]

Some celebrities have been "canceled" for their behavior.

Can you think of any examples?

In those cases, did the celebrity deserve to be canceled?

Why or why not?

 

[Retro]

Trump from Twitter, Fakebook etc, if you can call this charlatan a "celebrity".

 

[Arizona]

Charlie Rose in the US was essentially banned from TV without a way to redeem himself. He was immediately apologetic after he was fired from CBS and apparently never violated the law -- or at least was never criminally charged. The guy is old (81 now) but was treated like a social pariah except at his own website and Youtube.

What kills me is they let people like Judge Judy be on the air. She needs to be "canceled" for putting down people who don't work full time and/or are on disability. This is not "he said / she said." Her hate is out in the open. (Meanwhile, she probably pays essentially nothing in income taxes, i.e. she receives corporate welfare.).

 

[Crims]

Mob justice doesnt sit well for me personally. A lynch mob geared up and given an excuse to revenge sounds great for some spindoctor. The majority of times it is not even logical.
Gary Vee, a moggie ivory tower chap.

In an ideal society: Overly politic writers who make flat characters, Mediocre writers and Taylor Swift. All Youtubers too for the same reasons.

 

[Nebulous]

I agree with it for those who deserve it but at the same time there are a lot of people who are falsely accused by a malicious person and just the accusation alone completely destroys their lives, so bad that they can never recover.

 

[Retro]

+1 to that, Nebulous.

The bit that gets me, is when some woman cries rape against a wealthy individual claiming it was 30 years ago and with zero evidence. Other women may then jump on the bandwagon when it's reported widely, all making similar, unsubstantiated, allegations. Then, there is some show trial, the defendent found "guilty" and their life ruined... all without any damned evidence. How is that justice? And it can happen to ordinary people too by vindictive women who want to bring a man down.

 

[Arantor]

Do you have any numbers on how often that *actually* happens? And, by contrast, how many go unreported precisely because they're afraid of not being believed? And, for that matter, how many get reported but never get anywhere?

Don't smear the majority because of the acts of the minority.

 

[Retro]

I'm going by those big rape stories one sees in the news, which you should know about. There's been quite a few in the last few years and there's always the danger of the ordinary person being targeted. Teachers seem to be a favourite. You know this is all true, so I don't understand why you're trying to counter me.

I've not commented on the majority, or smearing anyone, so I don't know where you get that from. Just needs hard evidence, doesn't it? In genuine cases, where there's clear, hard evidence, I'd give that bastard life.

 

[Arantor]

OK, here's why I'm countering this, because I think you misunderstand the situation.

1 in 4 women get sexually assaulted as an adult at some point in their lives. 1 out of every 4 women you've ever met will have been sexually assaulted. Just think about that for a moment, how many people that must actually be. And how many of them said nothing. 1 in 2 are unlucky enough for it to have happened more than once.

September 2022, UK police recorded details of 70,633 rape cases. Which resulted in a total of 2,616 charges. That's quite an improvement, sadly, compared to 2021, where only 1 in 100 cases even got as far as being charged. Neither of these numbers is 'convictions', note, just as far as someone actually being charged with a sexual assault crime. And that's the cases that are *reported*. Some estimates put it as high as 5 in 6 don't even get reported - which means that something like 1 in 35 women are assaulted each year. That means you probably know someone who was sexually assaulted in the last year, but you probably don't know that it happened.

And yet all we talk about are the times someone claims a false rape. We don't talk about all the actual cases that are going on. And given that men are overwhelmingly the abusers, it's not hard to see why societally we don't want to talk about it. It's also not hard to realise why we as men don't realise there's a problem - because it doesn't happen to us - and why we need to raise awareness of it and call out the issues when we see them.

 

[Retro]

Yes, those are some awful stats, becoming a tiny bit less awful according to your info. But, I think you might be misunderstanding the point I'm making. Again, all I'm talking about is convicting someone without hard evidence like happens in some of these cases, making these stats irrelevant to the argument. What other crime is punishable without hard evidence? None. This is the point I've been making since the first post and that cannot be argued with or countered.

If you want to talk about the awful state of things with men committing these crimes (overwhelmingly, absolutely, men) then I'm with you on that.

To enhance this point, there was a Channel 4 documentary a little while ago where a female journalist went out "alone" late at night in three cities (London, Birmingham and Manchester I believe) pretending to be walking around drunk and looking at her smartphone. She had camera and security crews with her, but discretely hidden.

In each case, within 15 minutes, she had weirdos coming up to her and trying to convince her to sleep with them, quite explicit stuff they said too, showing her dick pics and all sorts, including "come into my car", or "come to my hotel room here" etc. It was truly gross and even worse than what I knew about this, so there's definitely a problem there. Alas, Channel 4 have since expired this program, so it's not possible to watch it now.

Heck, if you wanna open a thread on rape and discuss all this, that's fine by me. Just be prepared for potentially heated arguments and kneejerk reactions as it's such an emotive subject.

 

[Crims]

Do you have any numbers on how often that *actually* happens? And, by contrast, how many go unreported precisely because they're afraid of not being believed? And, for that matter, how many get reported but never get anywhere?

Don't smear the majority because of the acts of the minority.

Counter: It highly promotes the behaviour, doesn't it? With enough newspaper push it could potentially be viable for anyone who sleeps with a celebrity.

 

[Mars]

+1 to that, Nebulous.

The bit that gets me, is when some woman cries rape against a wealthy individual claiming it was 30 years ago and with zero evidence. Other women may then jump on the bandwagon when it's reported widely, all making similar, unsubstantiated, allegations. Then, there is some show trial, the defendent found "guilty" and their life ruined... all without any damned evidence. How is that justice? And it can happen to ordinary people too by vindictive women who want to bring a man down.

I totally agree with you: a floozy cries rape, because she wants to bring a bloke down, and the poor sod is blamed, shunned, stoned...on what grounds? Where is the evidence?
It's mad, and sooo unfair.

 

[Mars]

OK, here's why I'm countering this, because I think you misunderstand the situation.

1 in 4 women get sexually assaulted as an adult at some point in their lives. 1 out of every 4 women you've ever met will have been sexually assaulted. Just think about that for a moment, how many people that must actually be. And how many of them said nothing. 1 in 2 are unlucky enough for it to have happened more than once.

September 2022, UK police recorded details of 70,633 rape cases. Which resulted in a total of 2,616 charges. That's quite an improvement, sadly, compared to 2021, where only 1 in 100 cases even got as far as being charged. Neither of these numbers is 'convictions', note, just as far as someone actually being charged with a sexual assault crime. And that's the cases that are *reported*. Some estimates put it as high as 5 in 6 don't even get reported - which means that something like 1 in 35 women are assaulted each year. That means you probably know someone who was sexually assaulted in the last year, but you probably don't know that it happened.

And yet all we talk about are the times someone claims a false rape. We don't talk about all the actual cases that are going on. And given that men are overwhelmingly the abusers, it's not hard to see why societally we don't want to talk about it. It's also not hard to realise why we as men don't realise there's a problem - because it doesn't happen to us - and why we need to raise awareness of it and call out the issues when we see them.

Where did you get your statistic of: 1 in 4 women get sexually assaulted as an adult at some point in their lives?
For you, it is a given, that if a woman cries rape, she has to be unquestionably believed, and the 'bastard' who 'raped' her, pilloried.
And the joke of it? What is now determined to be 'assault': someone touches you, you can cry 'assault'.
God forbid a bloke touches a woman, she cries 'sexual assault'!
Between you and me? a woman walks around with half her tits sticking out, a tight mini, gets sloshed in a bar and dances on a bar table in a provocative way, in my book she is begging for it!
Oh, and I cannot forget the case of a prostitute, here in England, who sued a client for rape, because he didn't pay for her services...give me a break.

 

[Arizona]

If you are going to prison for a crime you didn't commit, it will most likely be due to a false allegation of abuse, sexual or otherwise.

Male therapists, stepfathers, and the like are, as a group, both potential abusers and potential victims of false reporting.

Schopenhauer was overly pessimistic about the human condition (his own father died by suicide), but I share some of his pessimism about the world at large. People going to prison for crimes they did not commit is maddening to me, just as maddening as people repeating their crimes without consequence.

 

[Retro]

Couldn't agree more, Arizona.

Just think how intensely personal it is for someone to be falsely accused and go down for it. Only the perpetrator and victim know the truth, with the perpetrator looking them in the eye and sniggering. Just how horrible is that? It's the ultimate in bullying by screwing over the victim's life. A real psychopathic thing to do if ever I saw it.

 

[Mars]

If you are going to prison for a crime you didn't commit, it will most likely be due to a false allegation of abuse, sexual or otherwise.

Male therapists, stepfathers, and the like are, as a group, both potential abusers and potential victims of false reporting.

Schopenhauer was overly pessimistic about the human condition (his own father died by suicide), but I share some of his pessimism about the world at large. People going to prison for crimes they did not commit is maddening to me, just as maddening as people repeating their crimes without consequence.

So true. I can't stand it when do-gooders and feminists rant about how women are the underdog of our Male Dominated Society. What a lot of rubbish!

Really. As you said, males, who are both potential abusers and potential victims, they are the ones victimised when a little slut decides to get her own back at a man.
How come all those male-bashers seem to forget horrible cases of "infanticide by mum!"
Yes, killer mums, mothers who killed, maimed, drowned, suffocated their infants. True those cases are rare, but they do occur and there is ample documentation of it. We have seen quite a few cases on TV. How those murderesses got away with life in prison rather then Death is beyond me.

Those cases are not extrapolated to mean that mums are fair game when their child comes to harm. Of course not! And yet.... when a male is accused, he is immediately tarred and vilified. Something is wrong here.

 

[Retro]

@Mars It's true, women can be just as nasty, ruthless and psycho as men. The only difference is the "style" used in some circumstances, reflecting the difference between the sexes.

 

[Crims]

Schopenhauer was overly pessimistic about the human condition (his own father died by suicide), but I share some of his pessimism about the world at large. People going to prison for crimes they did not commit is maddening to me, just as maddening as people repeating their crimes without consequence.

I'm glad you brought up Schopenhauer. I've been reading quotes because he's the best post-idealist philosopher regarding men and society - it's similar to nowadays as conflict still occurs regardless of politicians. His quotes are largely the best counter argument to modern cancel culture.

 

[Retro]

@Arantor here you go, some malicious woman nearly caused three men to take their own lives due to false rape allegations. This is a great example of why proof is required that a man really has raped a woman, like you didn't know. Dunno why you're so triggered by this really obvious fact and have thrown your toys out of the pram over it.

Three men tried to take their own lives after being falsely accused of rape and trafficking, a court has heard.

Eleanor Williams accused the men of attacking her and posted on Facebook in May 2020 that she was the victim of an Asian grooming gang.

The 22-year-old of Barrow-in-Furness was found guilty of perverting the course of justice in January.

During a sentencing hearing at Preston Crown Court, Mohammed Ramzan, said the lies had made his life "hell on earth".

Mr Ramzan said two weeks after he was arrested following Williams' claims, he attempted to take his own life.

He said: "I still bear the scars to this day."

Eleanor Williams sentencing: Men tried to take own lives over rape lies

Eleanor Williams lied to police and posted on Facebook she had been trafficked by an Asian gang.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Retro]

Here's a case where there's hard evidence for a historical rape 19 years ago and the man rightly went down for it.

A man has been jailed for attacking and raping a woman in a west London park almost 19 years ago, after his DNA was linked following another sexual assault investigation.

Man jailed for 2004 rape in west London after DNA breakthrough

Adrian Satchwell’s ‘incredibly brave’ victim remained ‘stoic over the past 19 years’, police say

uk.news.yahoo.com

 

[Mars]

Here's a case where there's hard evidence for a historical rape 19 years ago and the man rightly went down for it.

Man jailed for 2004 rape in west London after DNA breakthrough

Adrian Satchwell’s ‘incredibly brave’ victim remained ‘stoic over the past 19 years’, police say

uk.news.yahoo.com

That is how it should always be, find the evidence first, before throwing accusations.
But this is the age of the internet, were unfounded accusation quickly go viral, and people-in this case men-have a moral judgment passed upon them on the say so of a disgruntled starlet, or what have you.

That is totally wrong. Even if the accusations are unfounded and the man is found not guilty, or even never brought to trial at all, the stigma remains.
People will always say 'there is no smoke without a fire', and he may find it almost impossible to ever escape from under this cloud of doubt.