Debunking Flat Earth

[petermarkley]

I've carved out a modest little space for myself in the flat earth debunking scene. (Yes, it's a thriving scene, apparently.) In case anyone is interested, I'll share a bit about that here.

I hope I've understood the lay of things correctly ... If I'm posting in the wrong place please let me know!


How I Started

I got my start in 2019 when I conducted an experiment to prove the sun goes below eye level. (This is a side-by-side comparison of two cameras that recorded the exact same time lapse, one with welding glass over the lens vs. one without.)

And here's a numeric plot of the sun's path during the time lapse showing linear instead of arctangent motion (contradicting the flat earther claim that the sun "recedes to a vanishing point" by linear perspective; see below about "Rowbothamism").

More info on this experiment here.

This work of mine rested in relative obscurity on my YouTube channel for 4 years, while I moved on with my life. But earlier this year I found a rat's nest of "flerfs" on TikTok, so I started reposting my content there. I was hoping to debate a few of them and get at least some type of non-null response.

BOOM--all of a sudden I started getting follows, views, & likes flooding in ... Before I knew it, I had caught the notice of big names like:

• Michael Toon (100K subscribers between two YouTube channels).
• Millionaire / retired financial advisor Will Duffy, who has created The Final Experiment. (He is offering to pay for one flat earther and one glober to fly to Antarctica this December, in a collaborative, transparent effort to observe & document the 24-hour sun.)
• Organizers of Modern-Day Debate (194K subscribers), who hosted a debate between me and a flat earther.

"Rowbothamism"

So far my proudest contribution to the scene is my coining of the term "Rowbothamism." This refers to any flat-earth model where the sun circles 24/7/365 above the earth, always providing daylight to some portion of it, and never going underneath as it does in ancient cosmologies.

I call this idea "Rowbothamism" because it started with Samuel Rowbotham in the 1800s:

(Source; quotation is from page 85.)

Notice that this directly contradicts my observational evidence above. But it also contradicts basically all ancient cosmologies.


It turns out that sunset is quite literally plain as day, and while ancient people were ignorant of time zones they were not science deniers. They had no reason to rationalize away the evidence of their own eyes like Samuel Rowbotham did.

Virtually all forms of modern flat earth theory seem to descend from the ideas of this one man. I have never met a flat earther who was not also a Rowbothamist--or in other words, a sunset denier. (In fact this trait of sunset denial even seems to be shared by hollow/concave earthers, and other exotic variations.)

Besides the intellectual value of the term, the results when you confront a flat earther with it can be absolutely hilarious ...

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[Retro]

I've carved out a modest little space for myself in the flat earth debunking scene.

Epic. Of all the things to believe in, there's nothing stupider than flat earth when the evidence is all around us that it's not flat. For example, I can literally see it with the naked eye with zero effort and my vision isn't especially good, even with glasses. If I can, then anybody can, even those stupid flerfs.

That's a very good video you've made there and I've now subbed your channel.


Example 1

Ever since I was a toddler, I noticed that on an overcast, but clear day, the base of the clouds far away were at a slight angle to me, in all directions and even with the closer ones, I still got the impression of a very slight curve which couldn't just be accounted for by perspective. Of course, I didn't know much about anything then so didn't know why, but this just jumped out at me. This makes sense now I know we're all standing on a great big ball.

The effect is even more marked if one goes up a tall building where one is closer to the cloud base and looks out. Again, a clear day is a must for one to see this properly.


Example 2

I went to the south coast of England a few years ago, I forget where exactly, on a calm, sunny, day and stood near the water's edge, ie almost at sea level. There were some old WW2 battlements out in the distance and the further ones were rather obscured by a slight haze. On the nearest one however, I could clearly see a series of horizontal yellow lines close together.

If I was standing, I could see 4 of them, while if I crouched, the bottom one disappeared below the ocean and the water gave the impression of a very, very shallow hill rising up to obscure it. It was fascinating and I did this several times as I could hardly believe that the curvature would be so significant at such a short distance, but this happened every time without fail. Note that the difference between the two heights was only 3-4 feet too, not much at all. Again, the yellow lines weren't all that clear due to my eyesight anyway, but this effect was still visible even through that obscuring effect.


Example 3

Stand by the waters edge by the sea and notice how far you can see. Do the crouchy thing and notice how the horizon visibly comes closer the lower down you are. Now go up some stairs and notice just how far away it is. This effect is even more obvious from drone footage I've seen on TV where they weren't even trying to show the effect, it just is.

The drone camera was on with the drone still on the ground, then it took off vertically and went up to a fair altitude. I'm guesstimating that the difference in height was maybe 50-100 feet and this time, the effect was dramatic, with the horizon moving away at speed and the sea opening out into an enormous vista! Looked amazing.

One can go the other way, too. In movies showing people stranded out at sea in the water, the camera is barely above the water and the horizon is then very close. If the camera dips below the water, then the horizon is literally right there in front of it just before it goes under! Of course, there's always waves, even on a calm day which obscure this, but one can still tell. If one fancies taking a dip in the sea in good weather (I don't) then one can see this effect first hand for themselves.


Example 4

Standing on the beach again, I noticed how the horizon looked like a perfectly flat, perfectly straight line dead ahead of me. Turning my head right or left, I noticed that the horizon continued to look like a perfectly flat, straight line. This illusion is only possible if one is standing on a giant ball, because how can the horizon remain dead ahead the whole time if it's not actually a great big circle with me at the centre? This effect can be illustrated even more clearly on a boat at sea with no land in sight: just turn a slow 360 degrees and you'll see that the horizon always remains a perfectly straight line dead ahead of you.

---

I hope I've understood the lay of things correctly ... If I'm posting in the wrong place please let me know!

This thread could also go in the Science and Technology section, but since you've turned debunking flat earth into a hobby, it's just fine here too.

You'll like the pictures in this thread I created some time ago debunking flat earth. They're absolutely amazing.

Earth's curvature: Lake Pontchartrain Causeway (flat earthers look away now)

I like bridges and I especially like the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway in Louisiana, USA. Such a great feat of engineering and the first bit was actually built in the 1950s. The lake it crosses - in a dead straight line - is so big, that the far shore, at around 23.875 miles, is actually over the...

nerdzone.uk

Finally, fantastic first post, welcome to NerdZone Forums.

 

[Retro]

Peter, I've finally got it, absolute proof that the earth is flat!

Check out this picture from the Artemis 2 mission. The earth is as flat as a pancake!!




Note that they took this just before smacking into the firmament while trying vainly to reach the projection that is the moon, which was really funny.

This link points to the round earth conspiracy theory. Note how spectacular is in quotes there, very suspicious. Best not to click it.

Artemis II crew now halfway to Moon as they take 'spectacular' image of Earth

The snap was taken aboard the Orion capsule by its commander, Reid Wiseman, as the crew head towards the Moon.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Retro]

Flerfs get all triggered at Artemis 2 launch. You can hear the exasperation in SciManDan's voice as he explains their rank idiocy. I know, it's just too much stupid all at once.

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[petermarkley]

Honestly I’m a lot more fatigued from flat earthers’ nonsense now than I was when I first joined NerdZone.

I spent a year and a half, created a semi-enduring body of work addressing the topic, and tried almost wholly in vain to improve the tone of discourse. I got some positive recognition from globers (which was the biggest direct reward for my efforts), but from flat earthers mostly all I ever got was escalating toxicity. I gave them way beyond a fair chance, but they are truly a worthless cult-minded bunch.

After TFE and now Artemis II and everything else, any flat earthers who are not either deeply evil or deeply mentally ill are already out and recovering. For the rest, I do not plan to waste any more of my time or thoughts for their sake.

I have other fish to fry … Like Tollerus or Eithalica or an upcoming video with my dad where we talk about our shared history working with CGI.

 

[Retro]

I can't blame you for that fatigue as there's literally no getting through to them no matter what and that's always frustrating in the end, especially for something so incredibly obvious: the earth is an inverted hypersphere*. I find that holds true no matter what the subject or issue. And that toxicity, well yeah. You should see it on tech forums where people discuss CPUs, RAM, overclocking and other concrete things that aren't ambiguous, yet they still find a way. Just unbelievable.

I just put stuff about it here to either take the mickey out them like in post 3, or if I find something interesting on it like that SciManDan video.

but they are truly a worthless cult-minded bunch.

You're always so polite, Peter, I'd use somewhat less flattering, ruder words...

Look forward to your CGI video.

*Humour warning.

 

[petermarkley]

By the way, I will mention something, in passing (because I’d rather not open the can of worms too far).

Another (more indirect) outcome from my time debunking flat earth is that I am now agnostic on the question of young-earth creationism vs. evolutionary creationism. Maybe I’ve just been reading Genesis 1-3 wrong because that’s how I was taught to read it, when God meant it differently all along. I’ve spent enough time trying to drill that basic concept into flat earthers’ heads, maybe I should consider it myself.

I don’t remember how much we have or haven’t discussed that here, but I’ve had a year now to reorient myself after that ideology shift so I am okay with bringing it up lightly.

This is another reason why I’m fatigued of debunking flat earth. A large part of my original motive for fighting flat earth was to vindicate myself and my YECist community. But after Ken Ham hosted a hate preacher named Doug Wilson at the Ark Encounter, I realized I want absolutely nothing to do with them anymore. Vindication be darned.

P.S. - I don’t particularly want to tell my family about this because of some relationship complexity. But I think I can say it here without it getting back to them.

 

[Retro]

Your religious shift is interesting and this hardcore atheist would always be happy to debate all things religion with you if you ever feel up to it. You've explained how you feel about discussing your faith, so no pressure here, just letting you know the door is open.

P.S. - I don’t particularly want to tell my family about this because of some relationship complexity. But I think I can say it here without it getting back to them.

Hmmm... while NZ isn't exactly the go-to destination on the internet, there's always the possibility, however small, that they might see this. If you're uncomfortable with that, feel free to delete your post and message me privately if you wanna talk further. I'll then also delete my quote here.

Note that when members delete their posts, they are always "soft deleted" to use XenForo terminology, meaning that they're actually hidden, not deleted, hence mods and admins can still see them if we click on the coloured bar that's left, so don't worry about irreversibly nuking anything. In fact, the only member who can irreversibly hard delete a post into nuked oblivion and cackhandedly screw it all up, is me. Thankfully, I'm pretty careful with it.

 

[petermarkley]

Thank you but I feel safe expressing myself to a certain degree in public online where I think my family is unlikely to see. I do want to have a voice and go on record to at least a certain extent, and my family tends pretty strongly to stay in their bubble.