Should "dangerous" dogs be banned?

[Retro]

With the latest breed to come under the dangerous dogs ban scrutiny being the American XL Bully that's in the news at the moment after one of them mauled someone in England, I've been thinking about my view on the calls for a ban and the existing bans on other breeds like the Pit Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino and the Fila Brasileiro. I previously didn't favour a ban, as the problem is mostly with irresponsible owners, but now I'm not so sure.



The Japanese Tosa doesn't look at all scary as you can see and is clearly easy to handle, as demonstrated here...

Responsible dog owners have always correctly pointed out that these things happen because the dogs aren't looked after, or treated properly and are otherwise very affectionate and loyal (which I agree with) that they shouldn't be banned. We must remember that dogs have the mental maturity of a small child, no matter the breed, so an attack can be triggered by something as small as jealousy for attention, frustration for an unavailable toy or treat, basically nothing actually serious like obvious abuse, hence the breed must not be banned according to them and I can understand their point of view.

This is why owners must research their breed's characteristics and treat them appropriately, or just don't have one of these dogs, simple as that. Unfortunately, that sometimes doesn't happen, with the unfortunate result that some kid like an innocent 3 year old toddler gets mauled to death for no reason, an awful, senseless and unaccepable tragedy. There's no winners here as the child is dead, the dog then inevitably gets put down and the owner gets done for it. Sometimes other dogs get killed like this, too. But none of this has to happen.



American XL Bully. Not a scary looking dog at all, no...

Now, my thoughts on the matter are that, yes, while the owners screwed up, sometimes animals can just be unpredictable even when all the right steps are taken, triggering such unfortunate events. However, more importantly, these dogs are very strong and have an aggressive streak in them, in ways that something like a labrador or greyhound doesn't, hence such an attack is very unlikely with those breeds even when mishandled and if it happened, the dog may not have the strength or ability to do much damage anyway. Therefore, I think there's merit to the ban of such "dangerous" dogs. Think about it: everyone would agree that keeping a fully grown tiger as a pet should be outlawed due to the animals' wild nature, despite the fact that I've seen them on TV form close bonds with (well-off) humans and live in their homes, due to their size and nature*. Size for size, a cat is a fearsome creature, much more dangerous than any dog, which wouldn't stand a chance against it, even one of these hard bastard models.

However, I suggest a middle way, avoiding an outright ban and hence allowing responsible dog lovers to still enjoy the benefits of these breeds: stringent requirements on ownership, based on the same principles that require one to have a license for dangerous things like driving a car, flying a jet liner, controlling heavy machinery etc. To qualify for such a license would require things like the following:

• Formal evaluation of the prospective owner's temperament, criminal records if any, age, health, general background, financial status, living arrangements / family life, neighborhood etc. Failing any one of these will cause them to be rejected, so the next steps won't apply, but reapplication may be possible depending on the circumstances.
• Formal training at approved centres for looking after such dogs, with the training tuned for each breed and an exam with a qualification at the end.
• Regular inspections of the dog's wellbeing by accredited officials.
• Perhaps smaller refresher tests every few years to check that ownership standards haven't slipped.
• Dogs are muzzled when out in public, just in case...

Where the money comes from for such setups is another matter and would have to be voted on and brought in by the government of the day. In the meantime, I think a full ban is appropriate until this system is put into place, since these deaths or serious, life-changing injuries are so unnecessary and unacceptable.

Finally, there's yet another solution which I actually favour over the above, but I'm sure it would be terribly unpopular: thoroughbred breeds of all species, be they dogs, cats, rabbits, gerbils etc tend to come with congenital defects that can cause them to have terrible illnesses and suffering, which is so unfair on them. Therefore, I suggest diluting the breeds, such that every dog is effectively a mongrel and hence much healthier due to the much wider mix of genes. Unfortunately, I doubt that this eminently sensible idea all about maximising animal welfare would fly due to human vanity.

Waddya think? Please let us know in the comments and vote in our poll!

For reference, this is the official government banned dogs site:

Controlling your dog in public

You can be fined if your dog is out of control in public - find out about Dog Control Orders, banned dogs, dog fouling and reporting a dangerous dog

www.gov.uk

*Yeah, but I love cats, so would love to be able to cuddle a tiger, get rubbed by one (especially the rubs) and give it belly rubs, just like with our beloved miniature models. I'd be simultanously scared shitless of it!

 

[Retro]

@Mars @Tiffany I think you'll find this one interesting.

 

[aussiefooty]

No i think people who don't look after their dogs properly need to be banned from owning any pet let alone a dangerous one.

 

[Retro]

Yes, they should be banned from keeping pets, I'll second that. It doesn't negate my argument, though.

 

[Tiffany]

Even a well trained dog can turn on it's family and maul a small child, a story I was told from a vet years ago. We had a very strong willed Chow Chow at the time. I think anyone that is determined to own a dangerous dog breed should be subject to strict rules and law enforcement, should be certified to handle and manage the dog(s) in their care and have all of the safety measures in place. Such owner should go through rigorous training, as, well as their dogs and continued education. I'd go as far to say should be neutered or spayed, no breeding allowed unless you are a breeder of such a dangerous breed and then those people looking to buy a dog from a breeder have to go through an exceptional and rigorous interview to qualify including all of the above requirements and even then, there are still stupid people that take risks, thinking it's okay and slack off their guard and then you have a dog loose and mauling an innocent person. It's defiantly complicated, but I'd also go back to the breeders and the breeders that are licensed should have inspections all of the time. I think there can be more control, input and rules from the Kennel Clubs through out each country too.

In our pseudo country neighborhood it's not unusual to see stray dogs. People are evil and they drop off their dogs they no longer want out here rather than taking them to a shelter for adoption. I keep pepper spray on me, just in case and then there are the coyotes, which the junior coyotes are often out in the day time.

 

[Retro]

Even a well trained dog can turn on it's family and maul a small child, a story I was told from a vet years ago.

Indeed it can, unfortunately. Animals tend to be unpredictable and when it's a big and strong animal that can be dangerous, the risk is very real. I agree with your various points.

I've come across this article where 4 year old Luna Hobson was mauled by an XL bully and is now scarred and disfigured for life. Doesn't look exactly happy, does she? Doesn't look like she can close her mouth properly, either.

There's something visceral about actually seeing the results of such an attack, isn't it? Of course, one can't show dead people, which would look far worse than this awful example.

So yeah, I'd rather break the hearts of dog lovers by not letting them keep such dogs rather than have a person or other animal severely injured and traumatised like this. It's not worth even one such attack, is it?

‘An XL Bully disfigured my daughter - this is why we should ban the breed’

A mother and daughter were at a friends when the dog struck

uk.news.yahoo.com

 

[Tiffany]

That poor child. She is in for years of painful surgeries. Poor baby. Totally infuriating.

I'm not opposed to banning super dangerous breeds. Instead of killing them, no more breeding but they are in a monitored space unless they are too viscous and then you just have to euthanize them. No human should be put in a dangerous position just because.

You have to control the backyard breeders though and that's a real challenge.

 

[Retro]

Oh yeah, I don't agree with killing the dogs, even when they've mauled someone. One has to remember that they don't think like us, and it's basically at a very simple level, like a small child. It's quite possible that such a dog has been mistreated and teased for a long time before it finally snapped in frustration and anger. Why punish it with a death sentence for that? They would have to be kept in a secure area for life, though.

What's considered "too vicious" though? I'll bet the proper tlc will bring them round in most cases. Euthanasia should always be left as an option though, especially if the dog is suffering with physical and / or mental illness.

I also think it best that all such dangerous dogs be neutered (male and female) so that the breed dies out naturally with no suffering. A lot of the time, these are artificial breeds anyway, engineered for these problematic aggressive characteristics, so why perpetuate them?

You have to control the backyard breeders though and that's a real challenge.

There's always that criminal element wrecking everything, isn't there? Proper resources and money have to be applied to control this.

 

[Retro]

And now that XL Bully ban inevitably drops.

I feel the pain for all the responsible owners out there whose dogs would never hurt anyone, I really do, but ownership for them can't come at the cost of ruined lives due to the irresponsible ones. If it was possible to predict which dogs are gonna go mental, then I'd target the ban at those owners, but unfortunately it's not possible, so it must be a blanket one. This is a classic "no winners" situation, only a better of two evils one.

The American bully XL dog is to be banned, the prime minister has announced, following the death of a man in a suspected attack.

Rishi Sunak said the dogs were "a danger to our communities" and would be banned by the end of the year.

The man, named as Ian Price, was critically injured by two dogs near Walsall on Thursday and died on Friday.

While many have welcomed the ban, some owners and animal groups said a breed-specific ban would not work.

The prime minister said: "It is clear this is not about a handful of badly trained dogs, it is a pattern of behaviour and it cannot go on."

American bully XLs to be banned as dog attack victim named

It comes after a man died following a suspected American XL bully attack in Walsall on Thursday.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Tiffany]

I don't think the UK had a choice but to ban this breed. The American Kennel club really needs to take a hard look at this breed too as I'm sure there have been a share of mauling with this breed in the US. Breeders cross bred with pit bulls to make the Bully XL. What do you think is going to happen when you put that kind of DNA in a dog breed? This is where I have disdain for breeders and their bright ideas to cross breed with dollar symbols in mind, not safety. Dogs with the distinction of "guard dog" like Rottweilers, Chow Chow, Doberman Pinsher, German Shepard et al., all come with a black label warning and most people don't take it seriously when the bring their puppy home. Yes, I'm sorry for the owners, but more sorry for the innocent people that lives have been lost or if they are lucky enough to live, now live maimed for the rest of their lives.

There is an argument for temperament, no matter what dog breed I've had in my life, all my dogs had excellent temperaments because they were well loved, spoiled and taught discipline. Are they perfect, well no. My pom's are little yippers but that's the breed and how males are. DNA is very strong and reliable in many ways. The only dog that was not manageable was our Chow Chow. He did exactly what he was meant to do, a perfect watch dog, and only a few people could be around him and he loved my husbands dad, which was his favorite.

 

[Retro]

Here's a story about a dog on walkies with its owner minding its own business that got attacked by two other dogs. This garbage just has to stop ffs.

A dog was attacked while walking across Scout Scar in Kendal by two other dogs.

The owner is now pleading with other walkers to keep their pets on a lead if they struggle to control them.

Chloe Elizabeth said her Cocker Spaniel Cam was minding his own business before two dogs ran around 100 metres to chase after him.

She said: "The larger dog immediately grabbed him around the throat while the smaller dog leapt on his back.

"Hearing your dog scream in terror while being ragged around is so traumatic."

Dog 'screams in terror' during 'traumatic' attack in Kendal

The owner of a dog who was recently attacked in Kendal has urged other people to keep their pets on a lead if they cannot be controlled.

uk.news.yahoo.com

 

[Retro]

This is good news. Murdering lots of innocent dogs as a knee-jerk reaction is morally reprehensible and I'm glad the government's had a proportionate response to this problem. I see that they've adopted parts of my idea that I described at the start of this thread. I hope Labour continue this when they're likely to get into power at the next general election.

There will be not be a cull of American bully XLs, the UK's chief veterinary officer has said, after Rishi Sunak announced the dogs will be banned.

Christine Middlemiss said instead there will be an "amnesty", where owners will have to register their dogs and take actions including a muzzle in public.

The prime minister announced the ban on Friday after the death of a man following a suspected attack.

Many have welcomed the move but others say a breed-specific ban will not work.

American bully XLs will not be culled under ban, says chief vet

Owners will have to muzzle, neuter and register their dogs, Christine Middlemiss says, after PM announces ban.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Tiffany]

I was worried about that, glad the UK will not be culling those dogs.

 

[Geffers]

Maybe time to reintroduce the dog license. Not convinced this would be a remedy but maybe a condition of license could be a DNA of the dog on record. This may make it traceable after attack or perhaps even from its pooh.

Sign the Petition

Re-Introduce the UK Mandatory Dog Licence

chng.it

 

[Tiffany]

Maybe time to reintroduce the dog license. Not convinced this would be a remedy but maybe a condition of license could be a DNA of the dog on record. This may make it traceable after attack or perhaps even from its pooh.

Sign the Petition

Re-Introduce the UK Mandatory Dog Licence

chng.it

Good article and premise to reintroduce licensing. The breeders are a real problem and I'm not sure how the UK monitors breeders facilities etc. like in the US? Not only should breeders have licenses but should be subject to regular inspections, not just on the facility but also their breeding practices and records on those poor females that are often kept pregnant with puppies for a couple of years until there isn't much left of them. Makes me really sad to think about what these breeders do, and of course there are reputable breeders that only breed their females maybe twice a year, but I even think that's pretty hard on a dog or cat?

 

[wolfdeer]

I personally think dog breeds, like Pitbulls should be banned.

As @Tiffany said above, even well-trained dogs turn on their owners from time to time. I recently heard a story about a family who had two dogs (I'm pretty sure they were both bulldogs, but I can't remember what type of bulldog.) These dogs were apparently very loyal and properly socialized, but despite that, they attacked the couple's two small children.

 

[Retro]

I recently heard a story about a family who had two dogs (I'm pretty sure they were both bulldogs, but I can't remember what type of bulldog.) These dogs were apparently very loyal and properly socialized, but despite that, they attacked the couple's two small children.

This story sounds very similar to your example. Some animals just aren't meant to be pets.

XL Bully escapes garden in Yorkshire and attacks owner and innocent dog while woman is arrested for using her mastiff as a 'weapon'

Police have released details of two more shocking dog attacks which took place on the same evening in South Yorkshire.

uk.news.yahoo.com

 

[Tiffany]

You can give all the love in the world to an animal and they may very well be the best pet ever, but with certain DNA, I'd argue that it's the DNA that may be part of the overall temperament of a dog which makes them more likely to snap unexpectedly.

 

[Geffers]

I commented on this post midway between various other replies, I caught the gist of the conversation, but at that point had not read the opening post in full.

Having now read it I really must compliment @Retro on an excellent opening post to the topic, the detail of his thoughts are worthy of a Government analysis of the issue. Certainly leads to participation in the subject. Personally I think the XL Bully is an ugly dog, not too keen on Pit Bulls either, they are pure status dogs usually owned by the wrong type of person. No easy answer to the issue.

Geffers

 

[Astro What]

I think dangerous owners should be banned. In 16 years of law enforcement I never came across a dog that was, because of it's breed, "dangerous". The problem with them were the owners. They either failed to train the dogs to associate well with others, or they actually went so far as to train the dogs to attack.

Two of the biggest "wuss" dogs I ever came across (and they were absolutely lovable) were an overly "stout" Pitt Bull and the other a Rottweiler.
The "meanest' I've ever come across... a yappy Chihuahua.

Living in the country, many folks keep a few PB's around for hog hunting and such.
The one breed that is "iffy" has always been a Chow. I don't know what it is about them... it's almost like they are only a step or two away from their feral cousins even after all this time.

 

[Retro]

Yes, I agree it's the owners and I'd love to ban them too. Unfortunately, there's always gonna be bad owners, so people and animals are gonna continue to keep getting maimed and killed due to their negligence. This must stop one way or another, hence my opinion is that these dogs must be banned to prevent these attacks - just look at that little girl in the picture again. Horrible life-changing injuries, aren't they? That picture is almost too distressing for me to look at and it's one of the relatively "mild" ones.

The trouble is that, due to their power and strength, these dogs will attack with horrible results if they get jealous or are abused in some way, or bloody hell, trained for it. I think there's a degree of unpredictability with them too, even if treated right (perhaps mental health issues stemming from the dog?) which makes them a risk.

Banning will break the hearts of the thousands of decent owners, but I can't see any other way. If you have a suggestion for how to fix / reduce the problem other than banning, I'm all ears.

It's cute seeing one of these dogs acting all "wussy", I must say. They just wanna be loved like anyone else and will go into full soppy mode if given that TLC.

By the same token, I've seen documentaries where people keep big cats, including tigers. Again, this isn't a good idea due to their unpredictable nature - one swipe with claws out and you're fucked. Of course, since they're so big and powerful, they could tear apart one of these dogs, let alone a person, so don't make good pets.

 

[Geffers]

It is odd as to what attracts people to certain breeds, the Pit Bull type is often owned by people who want a status dog. In days gone the German Shepherd was an ultimate status dog, then of course the Doberman looked a bit fiercer, especially with the clipped back ears. Then there was the Rotty, recall it being in the news the power of its jaws, often quoted in PSI against other breeds. Then came the pit bull, now the XL Bully, who the hell thought XL Bully was a cute name for a dog?

@Tiffany mentioned about carrying pepper spray, of course illegal in UK. The added problem is the owners of these type of dogs are very unlikely to take responsibility in the aftermath of an attack, you'll get - He's never done that before

 

[Mars]

@Geffers as you say, "XL Bully" a cute doggy name it is certainly not!
The way I see it, the name is indicative of the types of people that own these dogs.... the bully type of people.
Whatever they are, dog lover they are not. Anyone who would have his dog participate in dog fights does not love his animal. Anyone who wants his dog to strike fear in people does not love his animal, only uses it to bolster their own ego; in my mind it is a sign of weakness of character, not a sign of toughness.
The truth is that almost every breed of dog can be trained to be anti-social, if not outright vicious. I have known aggressive Labradors, soppy Alsatians, quiet chihuahuas, every dog has its own individual character, which can be discerned by a knowledgeable and caring owner, and fostered to bring to the fore the dog's innate character.
Aggression is a welcomed trait in certain situations but it needs a strong and understanding handler. Most people do not have the knowledge nor the training to handle aggressive dogs. They should leave those breeds well alone, and should be banned from owning them.

The sad fact is that when these dogs inflict damage, bite, maul, kill, it is the poor animal that pays the ultimate price, by losing its life.
This is a hard pill to swallow, to know that an animal is destroyed thru no fault of theirs.
Therefore, I do believe that the ownership of such animals should be strictly controlled; as far as the general population goes? No you cannot own certain breeds. Period.

 

[Tiffany]

It is odd as to what attracts people to certain breeds, the Pit Bull type is often owned by people who want a status dog. In days gone the German Shepherd was an ultimate status dog, then of course the Doberman looked a bit fiercer, especially with the clipped back ears. Then there was the Rotty, recall it being in the news the power of its jaws, often quoted in PSI against other breeds. Then came the pit bull, now the XL Bully, who the hell thought XL Bully was a cute name for a dog?

@Tiffany mentioned about carrying pepper spray, of course illegal in UK. The added problem is the owners of these type of dogs are very unlikely to take responsibility in the aftermath of an attack, you'll get - He's never done that before

I didn't realize pepper spray was illegal in the UK. There are always dog attacks locally and nationally in the US, very sad, and very little breeding control. A lot of backyard breeding. The thing is, people get these really fierce dogs and don't take the time and money to get them really trained. It's like having a loaded gun in their house.

I saw a Rottweiler in the back of someone's truck many years ago. The dog had a spike tight collar and was attached to the truck by a heavy chain. This dog was extremely violent. I have friends that used to have two dobermans. They were so well trained and amazing to be next to, but I wouldn't ever fully trust even a well trained dog.

 

[Retro]

I didn't realize pepper spray was illegal in the UK.

Yeah, carrying just about anything that could be used as an offensive weapon in public is illegal, especially knives and guns. I can understand why some people in bad areas feel the need to carry these, but I think this rule is a net benefit overall.

The official police message is that carrying a knife can often be used against you by an attacker and I can see why that might be.