Should the death sentence be handed out for murder?

Should the death sentence be handed out for murder, given the chance of miscarriage of justice?

  • Yes, just do it, tough luck if the court gets it wrong

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not sure (explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, it's cruel and inhumane

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4

Retro

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This story about a dreadful miscarriage of justice is all over the news right now and rightly so. This poor man spent 38 years in a British prison for a murder he didn't commit and has just been freed now that new technology has proved that it couldn't have been him. Sounds like a movie plot, but it's real.

Now, if the UK had the death sentence, he'd be dead now and there would be no way to right this terrible wrong, terrible miscarriage of justice. As it is, he's lost an awful lot, his life will never be normal again and he can't get the 38 years back, but at least, at 68, he can now live his remaining years as a free man.

So, do you think there should be a death sentence for murderers? Please vote in the poll. Here's my take on it and why I think we should have a compromise.

In principle, yes, if someone commits murder I think they should be put down for it, after all their innocent victims weren't given a choice, were they? They were summarily executed for no good reason: this is justice. However, as we can see, miscarriages do happen for one reason or another, sometimes for corrupt and / or racist reasons like killing black people more than white people as happens in America when they get stitched up for crimes that they didn't commit, for example. I think this is totally unacceptable and anyone can become a victim of something like this, so I think a life sentence without parole is the best compromise. At least there's the hope that some time down the line the miscarriage can be corrected. If they eventually die in prison, then of course, it's too late.

Just to be clear, if it could be guaranteed that the conviction was safe every time, then I'd be 100% for the death sentence, but unfortunately, this isn't the case, so I think we need the above compromise.

There are people who argue that the death sentence is inhumane, cruel and unusual punishment etc. Yes, it could be, but then that's what the murderer meted out to their innocent victims, so why do we have to be "fair" to them? Let them suffer the same way, or even worse.

Now, let's say that the murderer is caught on video committing the crime, then surely that's a 100% safe conviction, right? Alas, not necessarily nowadays due to relatively new deepfake technology over the last decade or so, hence the court would have to be 100% sure that the video wasn't faked, something that can be harder to prove than you might think. Perhaps it's possible to be 100% sure sometimes, so this can be decided on a case by case basis, but the bar has to be really, really high. Bit of a grey area and I think the default should be life without parole.

To clarify, when I say a life sentence, I don't mean the British joke of 25 years and then they're out. No, I mean the whole life order version that means until they die of old age or other reasons. Put another way, the only way they're getting out is in a box. Also, I'm not limiting this view to just the UK, but any country or international waters, as the punishment shouldn't change depending on location.

A man who has served almost 38 years in prison for the murder of a woman has had his conviction quashed by the Court of Appeal after new DNA evidence emerged.

Peter Sullivan was jailed over the 1986 killing of 21-year-old barmaid Diane Sindall, who was subjected to a frenzied sexual attack in Birkenhead, Merseyside, as she walked home from a shift.

The Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) - the statutory body set up to investigate potential miscarriages of justice - had referred Mr Sullivan's case back to the appeal court last year after fresh testing found a DNA profile pointing to an unknown attacker in semen samples preserved from the crime scene.

Mr Sullivan, appearing on video-link from HMP Wakefield, sobbed and held his hand over his mouth as he was told he would be released.

 

Astro What

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If the evidence is without doubt (say body cam or video of the action taking place) then I have no issues with the death penalty. Where I have issues is with heavy use of so-called "scientific evidence". We have a case of that going on right now here in Texas.


This was investigated by a department I worked for for several years. And the lead detective now doubts the science used behind the conviction. I worked with Brian for several years and he if he has questions, it needs to be looked into again.
 

Mars

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The case of Peter Sullivan is a sad case; unfortunately he didn't help himself....Here is a quote from the BBC News article: ""During the course of the investigation Mr Sullivan gave conflicting accounts of his whereabouts and offered "confessions", the court heard"".

Conflicting evidence and certainly a confession, will surely militate against a suspect!

The Death penalty is just and correct, and not only in notorious cases like the Ted Bundy or Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer.
What comes to mind are those cases of poisoning. If ever there was pre-meditation, poisoning someone is right up there.

As far as evidence is concerned, it is true that even photographic evidence is not 100% reliable, due to deepfake.
A prosecutor once said, sometimes a strong circumstantial evidence speaks the loudest, I concur. Then you have DNA, and that usually seals the deal.
 

petermarkley

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@petermarkley what is your view on it given that you're a christian?
I am going to answer this two ways (at least).

In theory, it should be a pretty easy answer:
Genesis 9:6

“Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.
So if I interpret your question to mean, “How would you order society according to the standards of right and wrong that you believe in,” that’s the ideal that I would say we should aim towards.

However, obviously practice doesn’t match theory. Any society will have other issues upstream from criminal sentencing which introduce a level of uncertainty that many find unacceptable, and I sympathize with that.

However, I think there can be cases of such strong certainty that a death penalty should have been used.

For example: Leopold and Loeb, which I think is an interesting case study where the conviction was correct but the sentencing was wrong for all the wrong reasons …

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If you listen to the summarized arguments from both prosecution and defense, I disagree with both of them. The correct case for why the death penalty should have been used here simply was not presented or heard in court.

The prosecution spent their time trying to demonize the defendants, which was a house of cards easily knocked down by Clarence Darrow (the defense attorney). The defendants were obviously human beings. All defendants are. Our understanding of criminal justice should not rely on the denial of someone’s humanity, no matter how evil they are. That is simply a juvenile and reductionist view of morality which I believe will inevitably erode the moment anyone remembers to exercise human empathy.

I’ve heard the saying “It’s impossible to hate someone whose story you know,” and that’s really true. All the defense had to do was tell a story that painted Leopold and Loeb as human beings, and poof! All the hatred gone.

But we do not (or should not) necessarily punish crime because of our hatred. That’s just a completely wrong foundation to rest our case on for harsh penalties.

In reality, I believe that there is a concept of justice which has real existence. When a crime is committed, there is an imbalance in our world. That crime must be punished in order to restore the balance of justice. It’s that simple.

We can of course add on to that the idea of deterring crime. Despite Clarence Darrow’s condescending reference to deterrent as “old fashioned” and backwards, it is Scriptural. In the Old Testament law for ancient Israel, God often prescribed penalties “that Israel may hear and fear and never do likewise” (Deuteronomy 13:11, 19:20). This is God giving the exact reason for a criminal penalty which Clarence Darrow denigrated. To a Christian, not really a good look for Darrow’s argument…

But it’s also more than that. Many times God also refers to “purging the evil from among you” (Deuteronomy 13:5, 17:7, etc). This gets closer to what I mentioned before about restoring balance, except in these Old Testament passages it was expressed through the lens of restoring holiness or temple purity. This was an absolutely deadly serious matter to the ancient Israelites, because they had learned what a deadly serious matter it was to God. Aaron’s own sons were killed by God for mistreating the priestly office they were given (see Leviticus 10).

Now since the physical presence of God is not the head of our government, I don’t think we need to worry about that to anywhere near the same degree that they did. However, I do think we make a mistake as a society by forgetting the concepts of justice and holiness—or by getting those concepts confused with forgiveness.

Forgiveness is an application of unearned grace, which transcends justice. A criminal justice system must approach the idea of grace very cautiously—not because it isn’t noble, but because grace is often above their jurisdiction. Technically, only the victims and God can provide that grace, not the civil government!

Leopold and Loeb should not have died because they were inhuman monsters … they should have died because that is the penalty for the crime they willfully chose to commit. They deserved it. There is no mitigating excuse. It is plain as day: in their hearts, they lifted themselves up above the law like gods, which is simple idolatry. No one forced them into that. It is abject, willful sin that resulted in real violence.

“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed.” If ever there was a perfect time to apply that principle, it was here—but the justice system failed for the simple, ridiculous reason that they were led along by the music of Clarence Darrow’s Secular Humanist flute. How frustrating!

But this type of case is rare. When can we have such certainty as we had in that trial? I do think 100 unpunished criminals is better than 1 wrongful death penalty. And when we have errors in police work or the court system that screw up a case, those problems cannot—must not—be “compensated for” by fudging on the certainty required for a just death penalty.

That said, I of course recognize that not everyone believes in a transcendent idea of justice like I have expressed here. Over and above my beliefs on the topic, I think it’s best to defer to the consensus of a pluralist society. Should we give Secular Humanism a try and treat every single criminal like a mental patient needing therapy? In all seriousness, sure why not … the worst they can do is fail, because they don’t understand the broken depravity of human nature. It can’t be worse than the fascist church-state we are heading for …

Hope that helps! ☺️
 
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