XenForo 2.3 is coming!

[Retro]

This forum runs on the XenForo forum software and version 2.3, with lots of improvements, has been a very long time coming, but it's finally going to drop in the next couple of months or so. Some time after that, when I'm satisfied that it's stable and has no major issues, I'll be upgrading NerdZone so that we can all enjoy its new features and improved performance.

Check out the Have You Seen? section from the developers at the link below for details of the new features. They're releasing one article a week about it at the moment.

Have you seen...?

This forum spotlights some of XenForo's interesting features. Spotlights on features in upcoming releases will be posted here.

xenforo.com

 

[Retro]

Ok, we're still waiting for it eight months later, but it's definitely on its way at least.

XenForo 2.3.0 Release Candidate 4 & Add-ons (Release Candidate 3) Released (Unsupported)

This week in addition to a bunch of bug fixes, we've also been doing a spot of housekeeping in our code. The following is quite technically heavy so if you're a non-developer, shield your eyes and read the less boring bits. Much wider usage for class strings As a reminder, XenForo 2.3 brings...

xenforo.com

 

[live627]

I had a snarky response but I don't use XF as admin or mod or dev, probably never will. Too expensive. Can't afford. SMF works perfectly for my needs. (Disclaimer: I help develop it)

 

[Retro]

(Disclaimer: I help develop it)

Interesting, in that case you'll know Arantor?

Yes, XF isn't especially cheap, but I found it to be the most fully featured forum software out there and at a reasonable price, too. We all justifiably bitch about the really slow pace of development nowadays since we're all paying customers, but it's still great software in its current form - and it's got post numbers, unlike Invision. Don't get me started on that...

 

[Astro What]

Honestly.. in todays age, I don't see where the importance of post numbers are. What if you have deleted (in a 100 post thread) several posts. Those posts numbers change if you delete posts in a thread.
So if you refer to post 64, and if posts 23, 28,54 and 60 are deleted, your reference to post 64 no longer points at the same post. Your post is now going to be post 60 that you referenced, and it is wrong.
Thats why using a link (with the unfurl), or highlighting refer to this post or similar and linking directly to the post using the link BBCode is a better solution.
And as for whether it worked that way?



Message 3 should have contained content that said test 3. I deleted post 2, and as you see message 3 now shows as message 2.
As you can see, it doesn't appear as message 3 any longer, in fact, it refers to itself. Now, if you soft delete it, that may not apply, but I think it still does.
This can also happen if you allow your users to delete messages for any length of time.

And please... don't EVEN get me started on XenForo.

 

[Retro]

That's the reasoning that Invision gave and frankly it doesn't wash: give customers the choice in the ACP, especially for the prices that they're charging and it's a solved problem, since early products had it. Just stick the code back in ffs. It wouldn't even surprise me if the code is still there, but disabled. It's an ideology with them and that can be seen because they actuallyl had an add-on at one point by one of the founders / developers that restored them, but they then pulled it.

Sure those scenarios you described happen, but they're hardly a problem for me and I use post numbers to help navigate a long thread as I make a mental note of them for significant posts in particular to come back to. There's various other reasons that matter to me too and they're not dealbreakers on their own, but all of these reasons add up to a very significant whole that matters a lot to me. Therefore, to deliberately not deliver something that's so easy to do isn't acceptable to me and thankfully I still have a choice of other products, namely XF for all its faults that we like to talk about.

 

[Tiffany]

I like post numbers and find them an important reference point. If you don't want to blow a hole in your database when you delete a post, just move the post to your private archive.

 

[Astro What]

I like post numbers and find them an important reference point. If you don't want to blow a hole in your database when you delete a post, just move the post to your private archive.

If you are going to archive the post, then you aren't deleting it. And as for moving them to another thread (or an archive in another node)... it still affects (in XenForo) the post number.


And with message 6 moved, now 7 becomes 6.


The only way to possibly get around this is soft delete it. But then it still shows up for your moderators and admins.
It does NOT affect the post number (in the database) though. And that is what the URL link will use.
All post numbers are with the way that most of the scripts work are a relic of the past. The only time they serve a useful purpose if posts are never deleted.

 

[Retro]

All post numbers are with the way that most of the scripts work are a relic of the past. The only time they serve a useful purpose if posts are never deleted.

Um, no, that's just not true. I explained to you how they still matter to me and by extension others too, but you didn't bother replying. I just hope XF don't remove them one day.

 

[Astro What]

Um, no, that's just not true. I explained to you how they still matter to me and by extension others too, but you didn't bother replying. I just hope XF don't remove them one day.

My point was that the fact that it is very easy to invalidate the message that they originally referred to (in XenForo at least) by simple moderation actions of deleting messages from a thread or moving them. If either of those are done, the post numbers are no longer aligned like they once were. So if you deleted 5 out of a thread and you have a post that referenced message 67, your old message 67 is now 62. Message 67 is something else totally different if there were more than 5 posts after it. But where you referenced message 67 does not automatically update to reflect message 62.
So how exactly does referencing a post number help in that scenario? Granted, if you link to a post and it's deleted, the link is no longer valid, but at least you aren't under the mistaken belief that message XXX is now message YYY and your old post references ZZZ now.
Realize.. what I am referencing is referencing a post number in another post reply or similar. For personal bookmarks.. hopefully you remember what it was about. If you weed-wack posts out of threads, your post numbers are never going to match unless that thread is left pristine.
Post numbers (the 1, 2, 3.....5.....12) that get posted on the side of each message have no relevance any longer to a pointer since they are subject to change by simple deletion/moves of messages. If you are never going to delete messages, then that won't matter... but even the simple act of coming in a day or so late and cleaning up spam posts are going to affect it.
Again, I am speaking about XF specifically. I'm not sure how the others handle it (well, Invision doesn't have to worry about it any more ).
SMF does the same thing.. you remove a post from a thread, the post numbers change. I'm pretty sure that all of them are like that.

 

[Retro]

Look, yer missing the point!

Yes, those things can happen and also, from experience, it's not much of a problem, at least on my forum where I don't have to do much thread cleanup. Even if I did, I can't see it being a problem.

The point I'm making is that it helps me with realtime post tracking as I view a thread, so if a post number has changed, it doesn't matter. And there's other lesser reasons too, which matter to me.

Again, I think Invision should include it as an ACP setting, so it can be set to the owner's preference. Heck, if one wanted to go all-out, it could even be an individual user preference, maybe.

 

[Astro What]

Look, yer missing the point!

Yes, those things can happen and also, from experience, it's not much of a problem, at least on my forum where I don't have to do much thread cleanup. Even if I did, I can't see it being a problem.

The point I'm making is that it helps me with realtime post tracking as I view a thread, so if a post number has changed, it doesn't matter. And there's other lesser reasons too, which matter to me.

Again, I think Invision should include it as an ACP setting, so it can be set to the owner's preference. Heck, if one wanted to go all-out, it could even be an individual user preference, maybe.

That's why I said what I said about if you don't delete... but in the overall scheme of things for the majority of the sites, they delete posts as a normal part of doing business. And that messes up the post numbers which negates any usefulness for the majority of sites. In the bad old days you used to see folks telling others to refer to post such & such. I know several times I would go hunting for that post on a few sites because it might answer a question I had.... and frequently that post wasn't the one they referenced.
Honestly... I haven't looked at a post number on any site I participate on (including my own) in years. I really don't care what post number it is as I just read the next one until they are done. If I want to refer back to one later, I either use the script Bookmark function if it offers that feature or I just make a browser bookmark for the site in a folder specific to that site.
I've just yet to find anyone give a valid technical reason for why they are important, other than personal preference.


Sometimes change can be hard for folks.

 

[live627]

SMF does the same thing.. you remove a post from a thread, the post numbers change.

False. Each post has its own unique identifier that is referenced by the url in a bookmark or anything else tat references the post. It is immutable. The numbers on the right can and do change if a post is deleted or a thread is split because they are calculated display side and not persisted to storage.

That is how it works in SMF. Simple.

 

[Retro]

I've just yet to find anyone give a valid technical reason for why they are important, other than personal preference.


Sometimes change can be hard for folks.

Yes, it's a preference as I've explained and I prefer it because it does provide me with a useful function, as I also explained, so removing it makes things inconvenient for me and has no mitigating feature to compensate; it just does less. So, it's not simply that change is "hard", but that the product is now inferior for removing a useful feature and refusing to give it as an option for the forum owner in the ACP. It's very easy to accept change when it gives you more and improves your experience in some way as I'm sure you can understand.

I think you need to accept that post numbers are a preference since they provide a useful function, so if the lack of them doesn't bother you, then feel free to use forum software that doesn't have them, but don't try to convince me that it's somehow better for it, because it simply isn't.

Note, I have some really long, ongoing pm threads with some members, talking about different things over time. For some reason, XF decided to leave post numbers out in those for whatever reason and it's a real pita, irks myself and those other members too.

 

[Astro What]

False. Each post has its own unique identifier that is referenced by the url in a bookmark or anything else tat references the post. It is immutable. The numbers on the right can and do change if a post is deleted or a thread is split because they are calculated display side and not persisted to storage.

That is how it works in SMF. Simple.

Not false... in fact I recently tested it. You delete a post out of a thread, the post numbers change that are displayed beside each post (which is what we are talking about).
We aren't talking about the post number in the database, but the actual numbers on the side of the post.
I think I have been pretty clear the numbering feaature fo the database (like this one shows https://nerdzone.uk/threads/xenforo-2-3-is-coming.1228/#post-13172 remain the same. That is exactly why I stated that using a bookmark or link to the URL will follow it unless it is deleted itself, whereas saying "refer to post #8" is not a guarantee that you are referring to the same post.

 

[Astro What]

I think you need to accept that post numbers are a preference since they provide a useful function, so if the lack of them doesn't bother you, then feel free to use forum software that doesn't have them, but don't try to convince me that it's somehow better for it, because it simply isn't.

Oh, I clearly understand they are a personal preference, and not trying to convince you to change that... but they are a preference that serves no technical useful purpose as a reliable reference point once posts start getting deleted and especially if they are used as reference for people to retrieve content from earlier posts. Those references to post numbers no longer are valid whereas a link to the post itself is unless said post is deleted that is referenced.
That is the point I am making. Unless you never delete messages ever, they are subject to becoming incorrect reference points.
As I have commented, I simply cannot find a good technical reason for use of post number other than "that's what I've been used to and what I want" or "it makes it easy for me to figure out how many posts are in a thread instead of doing quick math". And that's fine and a valid reason for that individual.
But I'm pretty sure if you took a poll of admins and forum users, the majority of them do not even pay any attention to the post number on the side of a post, other than maybe to see the last number to see how many threads in an area (which again, most everyday users aren't going to really care about, only being concerned that they are on the last post).

And I'm looking at it from the aspect of an admin for what helps the users. Having a post referring a user (or users) to incorrect post numbers does nobody any good, and that has historically been what post numbers on the side of a post have been used for.... all the way back to the era of the BBS. QuickBBS, RemoteAccess and Maximus BBS all used post numbers. I honestly don't remember if they also had the same issue (I think they did, but that has been a "few" years ago since I ran my multi-node BBS rig).
Being able to click on a a hyperlink to the actual post referenced is much more efficient, especially if a thread is long and the referenced post is 3-4 pages back, than going backwards through pages looking for a post number.
As for a normal user, I seriously doubt they come back to a thread a week later saying "well, I left off with post #8 so now I need to read #9".

So, from a technical standpoint, I can easily see how developers might choose to do away with them and push the use of a reliable method of referencing other posts. The loss of them apparently did not kill Invisions ability to work.
It is ultimately what you are used to and whether you prefer a quick and effective method of referencing other posts. As for finding them for use as a personal reference point, unless you are making a note of the post number to get you in the general area, a bookmark function will continue to work better generally.
Now, if you are getting the link from the post number to use to bookmark from... the share button does the same thing, and does it easier/friendlier.

Now, you reference PM threads... I wish bookmarks worked on them. I'm sure there is yet one more add-on (and probably a paid one) that can be used for that.

 

[Retro]

ppl, just a quick heads up that I'll be upgrading the site to 2.3 in the near future once I've tested a couple of things and get round to it, since it's a really big update.

I'll close the forum when I do this so that there are no surprises and it shouldn't take long. Famous last words...

 

[Astro What]

Still too many add-ons I use not updated to 2.3 for me to upgrade. At the rate they are getting done, 3.0 will probably be out. I honestly think some of the developers are dragging their feet for that very reason.

 

[Retro]

Here's a thought: would it be worth you running a local test copy of your site, upgrading to 2.3 and seeing how many add-ons break? Perhaps it might not be as bad as you think? Especially so if the ones that do break you can do without for a while until they're updated.

Waddya think?

 

[Astro What]

Here's a thought: would it be worth you running a local test copy of your site, upgrading to 2.3 and seeing how many add-ons break? Perhaps it might not be as bad as you think? Especially so if the ones that do break you can do without for a while until they're updated.

Waddya think?

I already have a spreadsheet showing which ones are 2.3 compatible and which are not. It also has a priority selection. The ones ranked 3 are nice to have, but not important. And I only have 2 of those. The rest are 1 or 2, which I consider vital to the site. And of those, there are still 11 outstanding on 2.2 compatibility only.

 

[Retro]

11? That's a lot of critical add-ons.

Still though, what if you were to run that test anyway: a critical add-on marked as 2.2 might still work ok as it may simply not have been tested by the developer. You could then make a better informed decision, or perhaps just message the developers of add-ons that do break, for a timeline of when they might update it. I think it's worth a thought at least, anyway.

 

[Astro What]

Many of them Stuart Wright has already asked about. The majority are from Xon.
His ElasticSearch Essentials is a high priority. It offers search improvements that even 2.3 can only dream of.

 

[Retro]

His ElasticSearch Essentials is a high priority. It offers search improvements that even 2.3 can only dream of.

Ok, I can see why your waiting to upgrade. Tell me more about that ElasticSearch Essentials though, or perhaps just link to the product page, as I'm curious. As you can see, I've got the standard ElasticSearch running here, so it would be interesting to see the differences.

 

[Astro What]

ElasticSearch Essentials

This add-on REQUIRES XenForo Enhanced Search and ElasticSearch to be installed. Without it, this will not do anything. After the installing for the first time, you must use the "Optimize Index" option and then re-index all content. Requires...

xenforo.com

It allows a lot finer control of your search specific parameters along with a few other things.
If you get the mobile add-on it extends it even further.

 

[Retro]

Indeed, it's quite fully featured.