The Trump downfall thread

Mars

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The whole thing is beyond belief, I mean the fact that a convicted felon may stand for public office, let alone the President of the USA.....The mind boggles!!!
 

Crims

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Question for thought, what's the prediction for Iranian policies in the future?
To my knowledge Obama was very pro CIA (with Iran and other middle eastern countries), and Trump was adamantly against war with Iran.
 

Retro

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Oh, Trump would be fawning grotesquely at the feet of the Iranian dictator, that you can be sure of.
 

Retro

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The whole thing is beyond belief, I mean the fact that a convicted felon may stand for public office, let alone the President of the USA.....The mind boggles!!!
You know, if this was the plot of a political thriller, one would dismiss it out of hand as implausible, yet it's true and happening so the world is in great danger from a wannabe dictator. That boggles!

What gets me since that corrupt Supreme Court ruling that a president is immune from prosecution for official acts, is that Trump has just handed a loaded gun to Biden. He could take Trump out by doing anything from assassinating him to simply disqualifying him for the insurrection (my preferred option) and a million other things and sticking him in jail, all without consequence to him. But, will he pull that trigger? Nah, no way, he's not got the guts to do it. Morals you know. :rolleyes: There would be a lot of fallout for sure, but it will be as nothing compared to what will happen if Trump gets into power, and at the moment, it's looking ever more likely ffs and the foolish turkeys voting for Christmas are gonna enable it.
 

Astro What

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that show thast @Retro linked to.
Ah... David Packman. I watch him every now and then. He's not as well prepped as BTC is on his commentary. David lets his personal animosity and beliefs come into the equation way to often.

oh I did, but I still feel like some important context is missing. I think the SCOTUS merely reaffirmed something already in place.

I just Googled it.
And they went against the very thing that they have claimed (time and time again they toot the horn) that their positions are based upon, that being originalism theory. In this decision they jumped feet first into the very thing they (and conservatives) decry that the Democrats do, which is interpretive application of law.
They actually showed their true nature of rank hypocrisy in this decision, and many conservative constitutional scholars are as up on arms about it as the Democrats are.
 

Geffers

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And I'm simply clarifying why he was full of shite in what he said.
It was quickly apparently that if your quotes were what he said were correct, he was "twisting" facts to fit his (and the Trump worshipper) narrative.


Well, when you have that many folks reporting having sex with him while he was married, him having the number of "girlfriends/affairs" he did while married, and him bragging about being able to "grab 'em by the pussy" because he was a celebrity... doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what kind of person he is. It only takes a blind idiot to ignore it, which describes many of his cult followers. Trump is the classic hedonist.


No, sorry to say, but mine is NOT an opinion. I can show you actual laws and I can show you court cases of the implementation of those laws. That is NOT opinion but FACT that can be shown by documentation of the legal implementation of the laws as written.
What you referred to was that persons interpretation of what he/she thought how the law should be enforced in his/her opinion, not what the courts have determined that they are in their actual implementation. Just because someone does not agree with those actions does not make them "opinions" nor does it make them "wrong". Hell, every person convicted for drug possession crimes could cry that since they were convicted of a "victimless" crime, their conviction was "wrong" - and in fact many do and those arguments get kicked to the curb like they rightly should be. You see how stupid that argument actually is about "victimless crime"?
I gave you a VERY clear example of one aspect of a crime that did not require a victim to be a crime
That's like I don't agree with what the SC determined about Presidential immunity.. but currently they determine the LAW of the land, and they have determined that pretty much any official act while in office cannot be prosecuted, so now if Biden wants to have the DOJ do what Trump has accused him of, he's protected from any action... all thanks to Trump. In fact, the cry of Trump about locking Biden up is now protected from any action... again, all thanks to Trump. :ROFLMAO:
Or, at least it is until clarification from the SC comes out or the SC Justices change their mind again on how the law should be interpreted.

Now, once more I'll mention that I've been voting Republican for over 40 years... and am a strong Conservative. But what Trump and his fellow idiots are doing to the party is ultimately killing it. They have brought the GOP down to the same level (if not lower) than the Democratic party historically has been. So we now have two parties that are dumpster fires instead of one.

Again you write an awful lot of falsehoods*. The actual twist is that much of what you cite as Democrats doing are actually Trump and his cronies, especially in the Supreme Court, plain as day.

*I use the word falsehoods rather than lies, because I know you're not intentionally lying to me since you genuinely believe these false things rather than trying to deceive me. People can say a lot of false and wrong things, all without lying, by being misguided and / or not wanting to see the truth about something. A liar is someone like Trump, Boris Johnson, or many in the tory party, especially the ministers. Thankfully, they're all gonna get voted out today and I know we're on the same side on that one. Can't wait.
So guessing Supreme Court judges who don't side with your opinion are Trump cronies but those same Supreme Court Judges are fine when they go along with some Democrat opinion.

Are these Supreme Court Judges Democrat cronies? Changing voting procedures before the election later in the year, now this wouldn't be a political decision would it, not the democratic Democrats, surely not;


Using falsehood rather than lies is a mere play on words, both mean effectively the same. Many things are deemed correct until shown to be false, tragically Timothy Evans in the 1950s was convicted of murder and hanged, 12 jury members decided he was guilty. Three years after he was hanged it was found Evan's landlord was a serial killer. An official inquiry concluded in 1966 that Christie had murdered Evans's daughter Geraldine, and Evans was granted a posthumous pardon. The High Court dismissed proceedings to officially quash Evans's murder conviction in 2004 on the grounds of the cost and resources that would be involved, but acknowledged that Evans did not murder his wife or his daughter, a full 54 years after his wrongful execution by the British government.

As I mentioned, so many Biden supporters were shocked at Biden's performance in the debate, they couldn't believe his lack of mental ability. Videos outlining this have been shown on various outlets for the last 2 years or more (Sky News Australia regularly carried such videos of Biden freezing, saying unintelligible words, looking bemused), many denied as fake by the left, the same media that tells us how evil Trump is, same media that tells us how evil UK Conservatives are, same media that told us that if we get vaccinated then we don't get COVID and we don't pass it on, same media that is effectively ignoring the tragic excess deaths that are occurring worldwide, same media that is trying to convince us there are more that two genders, same media that is ignoring the Jeffrey Epstein scenario.

Dig deep on any business person or politician and I'd guess you can find dirt, many Labour council members get accused of fraud, it is not just Conservatives that use legal loopholes to feather their own nests.

Sometimes one has to make choices, often it is a binary choice, the US Presidential election is not one I can vote in but the US President has influence across the World, from a personal point of view I look at the Trump era 2016-2020 and compare it to 2021 to date, just take the volatility of the World now, just that one factor would convince me Trump is overall a far better choice that Biden.

Look at the major Democratic politicians, Pelosi, Schumer, Bernie Sanders, Adam Schiff, Clintons, Obama, check their wealth compared to their earnings as politicians, then apply the same depth of investigations as has been applied to Trump, the mind boggles as to what one would come up with but of course, no such investigations will take place.

Again, just my opinion.

Geffers
 

Geffers

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You know, if this was the plot of a political thriller, one would dismiss it out of hand as implausible, yet it's true and happening so the world is in great danger from a wannabe dictator. That boggles!
The World is currently in far greater danger since the wannabe dictator left office.
 

Retro

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The World is currently in far greater danger since the wannabe dictator left office.
Yes it is, but not for the point you're trying to make, that it's all Biden's fault somehow.
 

Retro

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Well, he certainly does now after that awful debate performance! He clearly must be replaced, but stubbornly refuses to go. What a surprise.
 

Astro What

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So guessing Supreme Court judges who don't side with your opinion are Trump cronies but those same Supreme Court Judges are fine when they go along with some Democrat opinion.
I guess you don't read very well?
I stated that even if I disagree with their decision, it currently IS the law of the land. But if you can't see the hypocrisy that they used in their decision making you are blind to reality. They claim to depend on originalism as their foundation for decisions. But the immunity decision was NOT based upon originalism, but interpretation. That is the very thing that they (and many MAGA idiots) decry as being "wrong" (but I happen to agree with) when determining the law.
Their hypocrisy was so readily apparent that even uber-conservative constitutional scholars were calling them out on it. So when you have both the left and the right saying it was bad.... pretty good bet it was more a political decision than a constitutionally grounded one.

As for your Wisconsin case you highlighted... do you have issue with this statement as long as it's supported by law?
Local clerks have great discretion in how they administer elections and that extends to using and locating drop boxes, she added.
I personally don't know what the law on drop boxes are in Wisconsin currently? Do you, or do you just base your information off zealot conservative reporting?
From doing some research though, drop boxes are not specifically allowed nor prohibited, nor are there any written requirements of their placement if they are used. So it DOES seem that it IS left up to the local clerks and they have wide discretion on how they gather the votes cast.
Just because a certain sect of society thinks that it is open to being abused does not negate the legality of it. If they want to do away with them, there is a legislative process to do so, not a judicial process that was warped (which was easily seen) by some justices that did not like it. It is NOT the duty of the judiciary to make law, only determine the constitutional enforcement of existing law. If something is not clearly prohibited, then it is clearly allowed.
And that Republican Wisconsin Supreme Court mad their decision based upon they were prohibited "because they’re not specifically authorized in Wisconsin law". Guess what, that requirement would hobble ANY government in that every action they take would have to have a specific legislative allowance to be performed. Do you HONESTLY think that's the way it works? Or are you just trying to use it as a crutch to explain away something that happened that you might not like (as was apparent in the case you brought up)?
Or do you actually believe that Citizens and the government have to be given specific permissions to perform actions, and that discretion is not allowed if something is not specifically stated it is allowed?

As for politicians and their income. If you think that ANY politician stays in it for the money (normal salary) you are smoking something. Some do get into politics with good intentions, but WAY too many of them find the easy money involved. Some of that easy money is legal, some is not. Hell, look at that blithering idiot Marjorie Taylor Green. Her antics are only done to get her name out there in the social world and increase her monetary value.

Some of those you point out have made substantial money on writing (or ghost writing) books. Just one book deal netted the Obamas $65 million. I believe that deal was with Penguin Random House. There are plenty of legitimate ways for those in the upper echelons of power to translate their positions legally into income. Those slubs that hold lower positions don't have that ability.
check their wealth compared to their earnings as politicians, then apply the same depth of investigations as has been applied to Trump, the mind boggles as to what one would come up with but of course, no such investigations will take place.
Bad news for you... this has been done time and time and time again by the uber right conservatives trying to find the dirt. Seems that they can't. Guess what, the same can't be said of the investigations into Trump. He had plenty of dirt present, and it was found.
And you can't say it's selective... remind me.... isn't the DOJ currently prosecuting several Democratic lawmakers for illegality while in office?


The World is currently in far greater danger since the wannabe dictator left office.
Actually.. I don't care about the rest of the world... I care about my nation. And Trump getting back into office will do more damage than any number of wars would do. He will destroy, if he's allowed, the very tenants of Democracy. He'd love to have a Hungarian style democracy.
Viktor Orbán is one of Trump's (and the MAGA idiots) favorite examples of the perfect politician.

Perhaps, but Biden gives off very weak vibes on the global stage, which emboldens adversaries to do unsavory deeds.

Honestly.. rarely is who is in office determine the actions of terroristic groups. I can guarantee you that if Trump had been in office, the Hamas attacks would still have occurred... because they already KNEW what the results would be (same as what they are now, the basic destruction of the area that they controlled). Do you honestly think that people with that type of mindset are "scared" of a politician in office?
I simply refer you back to the 09/11/2001 for an example from history. Those folks well knew what would happen... and did NOT care.
The ones in office in Washington at that time were not known as doves.... there is a reason that they were called hawks.

Way too many people look at him as a doddering old man (which he is), but don't realize that he still is willing to drop the hammer if required.
My problem with both Trump and Biden is that they are BOTH the wrong people for the job. They are great examples of the Peter Principle.
 
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Retro

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That's right, it shouldn't even be close. What's happening is a travesty.

Biden needs to step aside right now, but stubbornly refuses to do so. I could see Biden's age catching up with him some time ago, but I hoped it would go over the threshold after the election, not now, the most critical time a few months before it. Notice how quiet Trump is, letting all the focus remain on Biden while this clusterfuck unfolds.

Democrats called on President Joe Biden to restore voters’ faith in him — and fast. Rep. Adam Schiff said that the debate last month “rightfully raised questions among the American people about whether the president has the vigor to defeat Donald Trump” and expressed concern that the race appears to be close, while Sen. Chris Murphy said “clock is ticking” for Biden to recover from his dismal debate performance.

“Given Joe Biden’s incredible record, given Donald Trump’s terrible record, he should be mopping the floor with Donald Trump,” said Schiff, who is campaigning for senate in California. “It should not be even close. And there’s only one reason it is close, and that’s the president’s age.”

 

Geffers

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I guess you don't read very well?
I read perfectly OK, one thing I have always adhered to is not to insult or belittle people who have an alternative opinion

Your replies are very eloquently put which to a reader gives an air of authenticity however you do mention in one of your replies when referring to Judges that it is merely their interpretation of a law, as are your answers to various points.

For example, the J6 convictions, the prosecutors interpreted the law as guilty, the Supreme Court differed.

As for politicians and their income. If you think that ANY politician stays in it for the money (normal salary) you are smoking something. Some do get into politics with good intentions, but WAY too many of them find the easy money involved. Some of that easy money is legal, some is not.
I'd agree with that, where the line must be drawn is where some income is obtained via some industry with a vested interest, military during times of conflict and pharma definitely. US TV adverts are incredible, I've seen TV commercial breaks where every advert is pharma, they even want you to pop pills if you are well to keep you well.

Hell, look at that blithering idiot Marjorie Taylor Green. Her antics are only done to get her name out there in the social world and increase her monetary value.
An AOL?

Just one book deal netted the Obamas $65 million.

Ah yes, but you see how the system works, Obama gets a book deal due to being President, quite understandable, Melania Trump, a previously professional model doesn't get on the cover of Vogue. Had she been a Democrat First Lady she would have been all over it.

Bad news for you... this has been done time and time and time again by the uber right conservatives trying to find the dirt. Seems that they can't. Guess what, the same can't be said of the investigations into Trump.

Not bad news for me, of course they won't find dirt, the document allegations are a prime example, Biden had them and he shouldn't have had, No Further Action due to his age and memory (how absurd is that?) whereas proceed against Trump.

Actually.. I don't care about the rest of the world... I care about my nation. And Trump getting back into office will do more damage than any number of wars would do. He will destroy, if he's allowed, the very tenants of Democracy.

Well, you should do as the rest of the World is Ukraine, Russia, Gaza, Pakistan, Taiwan, Yemen, Iran nd others. You might have the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans either side of you but in WW3 the US mainland would get hit. As for the dangers of Trump being in office, they warned all of that for 2016-2020. Democracy was fine and no new wars started. As for your comment that he being in office would cause more damage that any number of wars would do. I must admit words fail me here, I cannot believe you could say that so I will comment no further.

My problem with both Trump and Biden is that they are BOTH the wrong people for the job. They are great examples of the Peter Principle.

Many suggest the same, Biden has become the wrong person for the job with many Democrat since the debate, prior to that event they were blissfully unaware of Biden's mental acuity, others who view alternative news sources knew very well of his declining ability but reliance on MSM meant than many thought Biden was sharp as a tack. The MSM are our main problem.

Geffers
 

Astro What

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I read perfectly OK, one thing I have always adhered to is not to insult or belittle people who have an alternative opinion
Then you should have seen that I clearly negated your comment. I don't know how much more clearly I could have stated that their ruling is the "law of the land".... that is until the next case comes along that they (the SC) determines upon political lines and don't change their claim to only use originalism to then use interpretation.
I really don't care about your "personal opinion". We all have them. What I do care about is folks that ignore reality.
The argument you used was specious at best.

when referring to Judges that it is merely their interpretation of a law, as are your answers to various points.
Again...specious reply to a statement. You need to research the difference between originalism and interpretation.
The problem is... originalism only works as a base, ALL law requires interpretation. That is why I said I prefer the use of both. The problem is when a justice twists the reading/law to fit their interpretation. If you have to bend the law/foundational basis to almost breaking to justify your interpretation, then it's a pretty good indicator that said interpretation is not a "common man" one.
And judicial decisions of ALL law is based upon interpretation. There is no getting around that. It all depends on what the interpretation is based upon. In this case, the SC says that they are based upon originalism (if it's not in the constitution then it's not applicable). In a few of their recent cases their hypocrisy has shown through.

I'd agree with that, where the line must be drawn is where some income is obtained via some industry with a vested interest, military during times of conflict and pharma definitely
Why? If their income is handled via a blind trust, they don't know what it's invested in. You see, that's the difference between many of them and Trump. Trump "claimed" to have a blind trust... he didn't. He was still involved in the running of his empire even though he claimed not to be. And that was proven by evidence. So the very thing you claim to dislike, Trump (and his non-qualified children/son-in-law that were in positions in his staff) were guilty of.
Biden is a classic case... with ALL the time and money that the MAGAtards in Congress have spent trying to "prove" that he was taking illegal monies in pursuit of their sham impeachment hearings, they STILL haven't come up with anything. And that's with ALL the resources of the federal government available to them. All they have succeeded in doing is embarrassing themselves by using known Chinese & Russian spies as a large basis of their claims.
Meanwhile, their pandering to the idiots has resulted in this Congress being the biggest Do-Nothing Congress in history. They have been so concerned with getting their Lord & Savior back into office by whatever means necessary that they failed in their core constitutional duties.

Ah yes, but you see how the system works, Obama gets a book deal due to being President, quite understandable, Melania Trump, a previously professional model doesn't get on the cover of Vogue. Had she been a Democrat First Lady she would have been all over it.
Well, that may be because she's almost 55 years old and there are younger and better looking females out there to fit that bill. The average age of a Vogue model is around 17. Quite a bit of difference in that age range.
The general average age of a cover model is around 27-35 years old. Esquire does tend to go outside that range, with around 40 on the high side and 25 on the low side.
Generally once they get over 50, they have to have been a super model, not just a regular model which is what Melania was at most. She was in NO way, shape, form or fashion a super model like Cheryl Tiegs, Farrah Fawcett, or Christy Brinkley (and I could go on but I think you get the point hopefully).
There have been very few over 50 persons on the cover of Vogue in the last decade. And of those, all have done more than Melania has.
Melania's only major "claim to fame" is that she was a model that married Trump and was fooling around with him while he was already married. I guess learning how to grift like her spouse can may be another claim to fame? :LOL:
Now, I think Melania has figured out what a toxic weight that Donald is... and that's probably why you don't see her on the campaign trail with him this go-around and her rarely seen in public with him since his demotion. She probably realized that he does more damage to her future than good, especially considering his age and eating habits. He'll be lucky himself to be around another 5-6 years and she has at least 20 or more ahead of her, and much of that she will have to depend upon her own skills for income.

Not bad news for me, of course they won't find dirt, the document allegations are a prime example, Biden had them and he shouldn't have had, No Further Action due to his age and memory (how absurd is that?) whereas proceed against Trump.
And so did Pence... but if you are to ignorant to see the difference between Biden having them and then them being discovered and handed over and Trump having them and going out of his way to HIDE them so they could not be turned over, all I can do is shake my head at the blind obsequiousness being displayed. And therein lay the problem with Trump and his worshippers.
From what I understand, you have at least served some period in law enforcement. Are you trying to tell me that you would have been allowed to inject your personal opinions in a report of an investigation of an offense, or was it to be based upon factual information. If you say the former, you are either lying or you worked for a really crappy agency.
The same thing with this prosecutor. He injected his personal opinion into the matter. The simple fact is, Biden had documents (as did Pence) and when they were found they were turned over to the respective agency in charge of them in BOTH cases. Neither Pence nor Biden were charged for violations. In the case of Trump, he and his cronies were going out of their way to move and hide the documents, and there is ample VIDEO evidence of them doing such. But now we get back to the "well, we don't care about the evidence" of folks that tend to worship the dumpster fire named Trump.
Well, you should do as the rest of the World is Ukraine, Russia, Gaza, Pakistan, Taiwan, Yemen, Iran nd others. You might have the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans either side of you but in WW3 the US mainland would get hit.
Thank you for proving my EXACT point. You fell into that trap that was set ... hell, you JUMPED in with both feet first.
You see, Trump and his cronies wants to withdraw us from interaction with the rest of the world. They are pushing a form of isolationism.
The world is interconnected now. What happens in another part of it can (and does) directly affect us here. By burying our heads in the sand (the Trump MAGAtard policy) we do not protect our country.
As for the dangers of Trump being in office, they warned all of that for 2016-2020. Democracy was fine and no new wars started.
Uhhh... you didn't see January 6 on TV? Bury our head in the sand or suffering selective amnesia? I see you like you use Trumps "no new wars". Well, wasn't Trumps peace agreement his grifter son-in-law worked on supposed to have protected Israel? Doesn't look like it did a very good job, does it? And sorry, even if Trumpty Dumpty was in office, it would have happened... remember my statement about 9/11 and how those participants did not care about what happened afterward?

Trump and his cronies tried multiple processes to bypass the will of the people to stay in office. The legitimate ones (the court actions) pretty much were ALL thrown out because they lacked evidence of the claims being made.
As for the other actions, hell, that's what he is awaiting trial on for several cases. That's also why several of his followers are currently serving penitentiary time for seditious conspiracy. In case you don't know what sedition is (or you are trying to ignore it) I'll give you a simple definition. It is conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch. Hell, in some ways even some of Trumps statements to the crowd before that action could be classified as such. He incited his followers, pointed them towards Congress telling them that it was up to them to stop the so-called stolen election (which by the way after coming up on 4 years he has NEVER been able to show any evidence of - see a repeating refrain with MAGA land and evidence yet?) and then pointed them at Congress and turned them loose.

As for your comment that he being in office would cause more damage that any number of wars would do. I must admit words fail me here, I cannot believe you could say that so I will comment no further.
Wars in another country have no affect on Democracy in the US. That is a red herring argument. There is AMPLE evidence that Trump and his cronies attempted to subvert the will of the People by invalidating their vote because he could not believe that he had not gotten re-elected. When a person lets their vanity come into play (Trump has a WELL documented history of not liking to lose and refusing to acknowledge if he does) and they try to force their will upon the system to put themselves first and the country second... yep, I have an issue with it. And I honestly, from reading some of your posts can begin to see why you don't.

Many suggest the same, Biden has become the wrong person for the job with many Democrat since the debate, prior to that event they were blissfully unaware of Biden's mental acuity, others who view alternative news sources knew very well of his declining ability but reliance on MSM meant than many thought Biden was sharp as a tack. The MSM are our main problem.

Sorry... at least here in the states, the MSM show both. I know that the limited uber-right wing idiots would prefer to believe otherwise, but if you do an actual sit-down read through you find that they have no problems calling out Biden on his stupidity. Now, do a similar read-through of the MAGAPress and you will never find anything negative Trump/MAGA in them. NewsMax and those type of so-called news sources only blow fluff, doing the very thing that the MAGA cult faithful like to accuse MSM of doing... but once more, they are so blinded by their worship that they don't see the facts when they are right in front of their face.
Let us use as an example Biden's speech gaffes. The MSM regularly covers them. Now, guess what. Trump does the same things, but you don't see those right wing so-called "news" outlets covering his gaffes, do you? In fact, they ignore it, and cover for Trump. So, now tell us who in that case would be the fake news media?

I learned long ago... trying to reason with folks that are in the MAGA style cults of politics is a losing proposition. They refuse to recognize facts even when slapped in the face repeatedly with them. They are more like children that stick their fingers in their ears and go nah-nah-nah repeatedly so they don't hear what they are being told since it doesn't agree with their preconceived philosophy.
With those type idiots on the right, and their corresponding uber-left idiots... democracy will turn into a thing of the past unless those of us in the middle stand up and put them in their place.
 
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Geffers

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I really don't care about your "personal opinion". We all have them. What I do care about is folks that ignore reality.
The argument you used was specious at best.
As Johnny Cash said, I know how you feel about some things, none of my business how you feel about other things, and I don't give a damn how you feel about some things.

Well, that may be because she's almost 55 years old and there are younger and better looking females out there to fit that bill. The average age of a Vogue model is around 17. Quite a bit of difference in that age range.
The general average age of a cover model is around 27-35 years old. Esquire does tend to go outside that range, with around 40 on the high side and 25 on the low side.
Generally once they get over 50, they have to have been a super model, not just a regular model which is what Melania was at most. She was in NO way, shape, form or fashion a super model like Cheryl Tiegs, Farrah Fawcett, or Christy Brinkley (and I could go on but I think you get the point hopefully).
There have been very few over 50 persons on the cover of Vogue in the last decade. And of those, all have done more than Melania has.
Whether you think she was a super model or not she was First Lady and a model, as for your age reference I guess your get out clause for Jill Biden being on the cover is that Jill Biden has done more than Melania Trump. Since Kennedy every First Lady except Barbara Bush has been on the cover of Vogue, whilst they have no obligation to do so it is blatantly obvious the most glamorous since Jacqueline Kennedy and she is left off. Only a staunch Democrat would not think that is petty
Thank you for proving my EXACT point. You fell into that trap that was set ... hell, you JUMPED in with both feet first.
You see, Trump and his cronies wants to withdraw us from interaction with the rest of the world. They are pushing a form of isolationism.
The world is interconnected now. What happens in another part of it can (and does) directly affect us here. By burying our heads in the sand (the Trump MAGAtard policy) we do not protect our country.

Wars in another country have no affect on Democracy in the US. That is a red herring argument. There is AMPLE evidence that Trump and his cronies
Oh you do have a high opinion of yourself, if you are suggesting Trump is intending withdrawing from NATO because of what he said try telling your alarm company (if you have one) that you don't want to pay any increase of fees but you still want them to protect you. And if US gets into a war with Russia the nukes won't care about your democracy.

Wars in any Country destabilise others, US owes $35+ trillion, that is destabilising the economy, that affects democracy as very likely to cause public disorder eventually if not addressed. Many people do not comprehend the enormity of a trillion, the interest on the debt is now greater than every US budget except social security. Just to give anyone reading this post an idea of what a trillion really is, 60 seconds for one minute, a trillion seconds is 30 thousand years. But of course wars have no effect on US Democracy. Many in US are blase about war because they virtually never experience the horrors, soldiers go and fight them but citizens at home oblivious of bombs, bullets and destruction.
I learned long ago... trying to reason with folks that are in the MAGA style cults of politics is a losing proposition. They refuse to recognize facts even when slapped in the face repeatedly with them.
Which facts are these? The ones that say there are more than two genders, or the facts that said the vax would stop you getting covid and stop transmission, or the facts that said Biden was sharp as a tack, or is it the facts that say the border is under control. I certainly don't take advice from people who say a trans woman is a woman.

You won't change my opinion, as I won't change your opinion, not sure how many view this thread but discussions and interactions may sway some who sit on the fence.

Geffers
 

Astro What

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Whether you think she was a super model or not she was First Lady and a model, as for your age reference I guess your get out clause for Jill Biden being on the cover is that Jill Biden has done more than Melania Trump. Since Kennedy every First Lady except Barbara Bush has been on the cover of Vogue, whilst they have no obligation to do so it is blatantly obvious the most glamorous since Jacqueline Kennedy and she is left off. Only a staunch Democrat would not think that is petty
No, every first lady has not been in/on Vogue. In fact, until Hillary Clinton, none of them had been on the COVER of Vogue.
Every hear the name Bess Truman? She was never even IN Vogue. Melania was featured in Vogue.
But, does it REALLY surprise you that a liberal based magazine would feature the wife of someone like Trump on their cover? Remember, they are not a news service, but a magazine, and they have an Allsides rating of leaning left.
That's like expecting The Epoch Times to have Whoopi Goldberg or Jane Fonda on their cover. You REALLY think that is likely?
What I expect is reality. I don't expect a left leaning publication to grant any "benefit" to someone that is antithetical (or married to someone who is brazenly so) their belief system.

But this is yet one more whine from the MAGA conservative brigade that can be tracked by to their whine and cheese parties from 2021.
Hell, Melania herself whined about it at yet another whine & cheese party that the right is so found of (and which used to be a popular leftist past-time).
It probably did chap her ass that she wasn't on the cover and others were like Hillary Michelle and a few others, especially considering that is pretty much every models desire. To put it in a nutshell, she didn't qualify for what they were looking for.
And again, sorry, Melania is far from glamorous for some. She's average looking. Ladybird Johnson and Nancy Reagan regularly showed a LOT more style and glamorous "looks" than Melania ever did.

Screen Shot 2024-07-08 at 6.37.25 PM.png

Yep, that sure shows style and a suave lady-like professional attitude. Never mind the number of times the story changed over what it meant.

Oh you do have a high opinion of yourself, if you are suggesting Trump is intending withdrawing from NATO because of what he said try telling your alarm company (if you have one) that you don't want to pay any increase of fees but you still want them to protect you. And if US gets into a war with Russia the nukes won't care about your democracy.
You may also want to revisit what the ACTUAL requirements are, and what are suggested targets. Don't depend on what Trump pulls out of his arse and says is fact, as 99.999999% of the time it's going to be BS, which he is very good at slinging.

The 2% of GDP is a GUIDELINE, not a requirement. But again, why would I expect someone that trusts Trumps statements to ever do ANY real investigative research. That's like thinking that the condemned man is going to run towards the gallows.
BTW, Canada, the EU and the others are at roughly 2.02% of their GDP towards their defense forces (which is what is required and not funds given to a central bank account for NATO use).
So, yet one more whine & cheese party with no meat to go with it.

Which facts are these? The ones that say there are more than two genders, or the facts that said the vax would stop you getting covid and stop transmission, or the facts that said Biden was sharp as a tack, or is it the facts that say the border is under control. I certainly don't take advice from people who say a trans woman is a woman.
The facts that can be proven what the whine is about has no valid basis. You know, like the ones that Vogue leans left and isn't going to go out of their way to pay homage to someone that represents something they don't agree with and in some cases are diametrically opposed to, the same way that The Epoch Times would not.
I don't care whether you have a penis, a vagina, both or none. Nor do I care whether you want to call yourself a cucumber, an egg plant, a chef salad, a chicken, a cat, a male or a female. That is that persons business, not mine. You see, I believe in the value of letting people do what they want as long as it does not directly interfere in the lives of others... not forcing my beliefs upon the rest of society.

And really.. WHAT business of it of yours is it if a guy wants to identify as a woman or a woman identify as a guy, or either identify as a <insert item here>? Worried about being surprised when having sex? Well, generally when you see someone undress and you see a penis hanging down and you swing towards a vagina it should be a big warning sign that you don't want to enter those doors. But when it comes to daily life? Please expound to us exactly how it directly affects you whether you are getting food served to you buy a male, a female, a male that identifies as a female or a female that identifies as a male.... other than your personal opinion doesn't like wha they are doing.
Ever see the acronym MYOFB? Just in case you haven't, I'll highlight the biggest parts. Mind Your Own F..... Business. Just like you probably don't like folks delving into yours, why delve into theirs? Religious beliefs? Which religion... you do know that at last count there over 10,000 distinct religions in the world. Is everyone required to bend a knee to YOUR religion to make you feel good?

As for the vaccine, I'm pretty sure, at least here in the US, there were never official claims that it the vaccine would "stop" COVID. In fact, from what I read from the official reporting they all clearly stated that they would help in the REDUCTION of the transmission, REDUCE the SEVERITY of it if you caught it and also help older people get past the higher incidence of death if they did catch it.
Now, care to get into the studies that were done that proved that Ivermectin was not an effective treatment like certain sects of the public claimed? Or how about the studies that were done that proved that hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine were NOT effective treatments for Covid, again unlike what that same segment claimed.
Or how about the claim that mixing rum, bleach and fabric softener made an effective cheap antibacterial hand wash? The only way that was correct was if you were using 150% rum, which is not what most people buy and would make it MORE expensive than the "real stuff" usually. Or how about two medical proponents claiming that inhaling 0.5–3% hydrogen peroxide solution using a nebulizer could prevent or cure COVID-19. Or how about the USB flash drives that were being sold for $370 as a "5G Bioshield", purportedly offering protection from the non-existent threat of infection transmitted via 5G mobile telephone radio waves? And I could go on... and on... and on.... and on with these type of claims that were shown to be lacking in factual basis, but claimed to be "facts" by the anti-vaccine zealots.Or how about the claim that mixing rum, bleach and fabric softener? The only way that was correct was if you were using 150% rum, which is not what most people buy. Or how about two medical proponents claiming that inhaling 0.5–3% hydrogen peroxide solution using a nebulizer could prevent or cure COVID-19. Or how about the USB flash drives that were being sold for $370 as a "5G Bioshield", purportedly offering protection from the non-existent threat of infection transmitted via 5G mobile telephone radio waves? And I could go on... and on... and on.... and on with these type of claims that were shown to be lacking in factual basis, but claimed to be "facts" by the anti-vaccine zealots.

Now, as to the fact MSM "hides/protects" Biden.... just another data point to slap THAT lie to the curb.

You won't change my opinion, as I won't change your opinion, not sure how many view this thread but discussions and interactions may sway some who sit on the fence.
And with this very statement you simply prove the point I was making. Facts (documentable, scientifically proven) do not matter to you because you disagree with them while you have no basis to disprove/challenge those facts other than "I don't believe them".
Well, folks still think the earth is flat also..... meanwhile the rest of society laughs at them because provable facts show that they are wrong.
 
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Geffers

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And I could go on... and on... and on.... and on with these type of claims that were shown to be lacking in factual basis, but claimed to be "facts" by the anti-vaccine zealots.Or how about the claim that mixing rum, bleach and fabric softener? The only way that was correct was if you were using 150% rum, which is not what most people buy. Or how about two medical proponents claiming that inhaling 0.5–3% hydrogen peroxide solution using a nebulizer could prevent or cure COVID-19. Or how about the USB flash drives that were being sold for $370 as a "5G Bioshield", purportedly offering protection from the non-existent threat of infection transmitted via 5G mobile telephone radio waves? And I could go on... and on... and on.... and on with these type of claims that were shown to be lacking in factual basis, but claimed to be "facts" by the anti-vaccine zealots.

Labelling is where one can turn a valid alternative opinion into what appears a ridiculous direction. Anti Vax, anti vax, anti vax. Few were actually anti vax, they were merely cautious of a rushed vaccine that earned vast fortunes for pharma and many politicians that had vested interests. The anti vaxers were quite happy with the old established vaccines that went through the normal tests and clinical trials that we knew of in the past, I also appreciate there have been issues that later emerged even with drugs going through they normal evauluation process.

And with this very statement you simply prove the point I was making. Facts (documentable, scientifically proven) do not matter to you because you disagree with them while you have no basis to disprove/challenge those facts other than "I don't believe them".
Well, folks still think the earth is flat also..... meanwhile the rest of society laughs at them because provable facts show that they are wrong.

During COVID too many professionals with alternative opinions were shut down by tech and media for the above comment to be 100% valid, there are always extreme views for many subjects but when doctors, epidemiologist and others with valid cautious comments were being cancelled then that is when conspiracy theories abound.

An interesting video I watched recently highlights how media can alter peoples views of the truth. In US The Democrats have successfully convinced many that they are the party of minorities, that the Republican party are racists. after all, the black guy ain't black if he don't vote for Biden.

Here is a 10 minute video by a black couple featuring a black professor talking about the history of racism in US.

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Geffers
 

Astro What

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Few were actually anti vax, they were merely cautious of a rushed vaccine that earned vast fortunes for pharma and many politicians that had vested interests.
Sorry, the torch carriers with much of this here in the United States were clearly avowed anti-vax believers. They then sucked the gullible in.
The ones working hardest to call the trials process of the vaccine into question were (and this has been documented) the anti-vaccine groups. Yet you highlight the exact argument that they used, while disclaiming that belief?

And if you are against a vaccine (even a single one), then you ARE anti-vax by the very definition of the word "anti" - being opposed to or against.
As for "few"... again, incorrect. I've read and researched on the topic during the time that Covid was heavily impacting the world and you had those that were pushing their "alternative cures".

In fact, the "old established" vaccine formulation process produced a vaccine that was slightly less effective AND resulted in side affects that were similar to the MRNA vaccines, which you barely acknowledge. In fact, Novavax, the one developed using the "tried & true" process, is not approved/licensed for use in the US and exists only under the emergency orders. Meanwhile, those nasty MRNA vaccines are APPROVED by the FDA for use in those over 12 years of age and have emergency license for use for those between the ages of 6 months to 11 years.
Technology and medicine moves forward. Many aspects of what was once having to be tested in a lab can be done my computer modeling.

As for politicians having vested interests? Guess what - they are subject to the same greed any other human is. There were a lot more than just politicians with "vested interests". There were lots of folks dying and ill that had a vested interest in getting something online that reduced that probability. And that did happen, and the validity of the use of those vaccines have been medically proven.

Now, remind us... how many of those that were anti Covid vaccine were pushing their own "cures/preventions". So, please, don't act like that greed/vested interest was only on one side of the street.

Just as an example of how "nuts" the right-wing has gotten, in 2022 the Texas Republican Party platform included natural and unalienable rights not to be vaccinated. Never mind that vaccination has been documented to prevent the spread of communicable diseases amongst students, they have pushed for eliminating vaccination requirements amongst students.

But I do find it rather interesting...the majority of the anti-vax community has now trended to a large number of the right wing from the fringe niche (usually liberal) it used to be.

During COVID too many professionals with alternative opinions were shut down by tech and media for the above comment to be 100% valid, there are always extreme views for many subjects but when doctors, epidemiologist and others with valid cautious comments were being cancelled then that is when conspiracy theories abound.
Again.... I detailed to you the FACT that hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine/Ivermectin was scientifically proven to have NO noticeable beneficial effect on the prevention/cure of COVID 19 (which were the most pushed "alternative opinion/treatment" arguments). So yes, even then those that were pushing it and being shut down were a GOOD thing. The use of those drugs themselves caused medical issues that would not have happened if those "professionals" with "alternative opinions" were not pushing it. Ironically, many of those "professionals" that were pushing their "alternative opinions" were also involved in pushing "alternative products" that they claimed worked. Hell, we had folks going out to Tractor Supply (a farm supply business) and buying tubes of HORSE Ivermectin to treat themselves with.

Was the vaccine perfect? Nope, but last time I checked, the ONLY vaccine that was anywhere NEAR perfect (for treatment) was the smallpox vaccine (99.9% effective). The first vaccine for it was created in 1796, but the first effective implementation wasn't until the 1950's.
Even the polio vaccine (using the methodology you tout) is STILL known to cause polio for certain recipients of it. I guess we should do away with giving that vaccine totally because it has some side affects?
I guess the chicken pox vaccine (which was created and tested also under the process that you infer is the only correct one) should be done away with also, as it has been clinically proven to cause shingles in persons later in rare instances.

As for those with "cautious comments" being "cancelled"? The only "cancelling" I saw was the ones that were recommending crap that was NOT shown to be effective and later shown to be INeffective. Those that were worried about the short testing time and stuff had ample opportunity to voice their concerns, and those concerns (at least here in the US media) were shown.

The "conspiracy theories" abound when you start ignoring factual evidence and listening to anecdotal statements and taking those as fact.
And that's what happened with many of those "alternative opinions". They had NO studies to back it up, just what they "felt" from their experiences were "true".
Meanwhile in the land of reality, people recognize that medicine of any type is not 100% safe nor 100% effective.
 

Retro

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Well, waddya know, the Trump campaign, through their proxy, is already preparing the groundwork for declaring the 2024 election illegitimate.

To this day, Trump continues to spew the debunked bullshit that the 2020 election was rigged and that Biden didn't win legitimately.

“As things stand right now, there’s a zero percent chance of a free and fair election,” said Mike Howell, executive director of Heritage’s Oversight Project, The Washington Post reported. “I’m formally accusing the Biden administration of creating the conditions that most reasonable policymakers and officials cannot in good conscience certify an election.”


 

Geffers

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And if you are against a vaccine (even a single one), then you ARE anti-vax by the very definition of the word "anti" - being opposed to or against.
That is totally illogical as if one is happy to take one then by your reasoning you are pro-vax

In fact, the "old established" vaccine formulation process produced a vaccine that was slightly less effective AND resulted in side affects that were similar to the MRNA vaccines, which you barely acknowledge.
Not sure what you are referring to there where you mention 'barely acknowledge', don't recall even covering that issue.

In fact, Novavax, the one developed using the "tried & true" process, is not approved/licensed for use in the US and exists only under the emergency orders. Meanwhile, those nasty MRNA vaccines are APPROVED by the FDA for use in those over 12 years of age and have emergency license for use for those between the ages of 6 months to 11 years.
The potential disadvantages of side affects are far greater in young persons that any advantage, unless they were suffering other medical conditions there was very little danger that necessitated taking the vaccine.

Technology and medicine moves forward. Many aspects of what was once having to be tested in a lab can be done my computer modeling.

Computer modelling was found to be very suspect with Prof. Neil Ferguson in UK, his projections were way out.
As for politicians having vested interests? Guess what - they are subject to the same greed any other human is. There were a lot more than just politicians with "vested interests". There were lots of folks dying and ill that had a vested interest in getting something online that reduced that probability. And that did happen, and the validity of the use of those vaccines have been medically proven.
There were lots of folk dying and there still are still lots of folk dying, but the media interest in causes has disappeared, the trend for younger SADs is very worrying but there seems to be apathy investigating any causes.

Now, remind us... how many of those that were anti Covid vaccine were pushing their own "cures/preventions". So, please, don't act like that greed/vested interest was only on one side of the street.
Never is just one side of the street but when one side speaks in billions and the other is small fry by comparison caution is a sensible approach.
Just as an example of how "nuts" the right-wing has gotten, in 2022 the Texas Republican Party platform included natural and unalienable rights not to be vaccinated. Never mind that vaccination has been documented to prevent the spread of communicable diseases amongst students, they have pushed for eliminating vaccination requirements amongst students.
Didn't Pfizer admit they did not test if it stopped transmission? Pretty sure they made that admission recently. We do know that it neither prevents recipient catching covid nor does it prevent transmission.


Again.... I detailed to you the FACT that hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine/Ivermectin was scientifically proven to have NO noticeable beneficial effect on the prevention/cure of COVID 19 (which were the most pushed "alternative opinion/treatment" arguments). So yes, even then those that were pushing it and being shut down were a GOOD thing. The use of those drugs themselves caused medical issues that would not have happened if those "professionals" with "alternative opinions" were not pushing it.
The administering of the vax also caused medical issues that would not have happened had medical professionals not administered the vax, your argument works both ways.
Ironically, many of those "professionals" that were pushing their "alternative opinions" were also involved in pushing "alternative products" that they claimed worked.
Not all of them, Dr Suneel Dhand was not anti vax, he was anti pushing it on those that were not vulnerable but recommended it for aged and vulnerable people. He was treating people front line but got deplatformed because he was against mandatory vaccination.
Was the vaccine perfect? Nope, but last time I checked, the ONLY vaccine that was anywhere NEAR perfect (for treatment) was the smallpox vaccine (99.9% effective).
It certainly wasn't perfect.
The "conspiracy theories" abound when you start ignoring factual evidence and listening to anecdotal statements and taking those as fact.
And that's what happened with many of those "alternative opinions". They had NO studies to back it up, just what they "felt" from their experiences were "true".
Meanwhile in the land of reality, people recognize that medicine of any type is not 100% safe nor 100% effective.
Meanwhile many young persons are suffering mysterious heart problems and there is little enthusiasm to investigate causes.
 

Astro What

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That is totally illogical as if one is happy to take one then by your reasoning you are pro-vax
Yes, if you take vaccines, you are pro vaccine... if you deny a vaccine, you are anti vaccine. The English language is very easy to understand the use of adjectives with.
The potential disadvantages of side affects are far greater in young persons that any advantage, unless they were suffering other medical conditions there was very little danger that necessitated taking the vaccine.
Please, give us the statistics on the deaths caused by the vaccine compared to the deaths in youth caused by Covid.
Those who were vaccinated were roughly 86 percent less likely to be infected compared to unvaccinated peers, and their protection against severe illness and ICU admission was similarly high, being approximately 85 and 91 percent less likely, respectively, than the unvaccinated.
According to some research:
Compared with those who never had COVID-19, young people who did have the disease were more likely to report:
  • Blood clot in the lung.
  • Blood clot in a vein.
  • Heart infection called myocarditis.
  • Thickening of the heart wall called cardiomyopathy.
  • Kidney failure.
  • Type 1 diabetes.
And those are at a higher rate than the side-affects of the vaccine...so please expound on your statement that they the side affects are greater for the vaccine than not taking the vaccine.

Didn't Pfizer admit they did not test if it stopped transmission? Pretty sure they made that admission recently. We do know that it neither prevents recipient catching covid nor does it prevent transmission.
Whether they did test or not has no bearing. The purpose of a vaccine is not to "stop transmission" but to prevent infection. The "stop transmission" is just one more cry used by a certain sect of society to try to argue against vaccination(s).

Never is just one side of the street but when one side speaks in billions and the other is small fry by comparison caution is a sensible approach
Not unless it is scientifically backed. You HAVE heard of the phrase "snake oil salesmen" I assume?

The administering of the vax also caused medical issues that would not have happened had medical professionals not administered the vax, your argument works both ways.
Once more... not factual. The off-label use of other medicines were NOT effective treatments AND caused additional medical issues. But I really don't expect you to see the difference. It's hard to argue facts with a person with a closed mind.
Not all of them, Dr Suneel Dhand was not anti vax, he was anti pushing it on those that were not vulnerable but recommended it for aged and vulnerable people. He was treating people front line but got deplatformed because he was against mandatory vaccination.

Being against mandatory vaccination does not equate with not supporting the vaccine. I too was against mandatory vaccination for the general population. But private businesses (at least here in the US) are just that.... private businesses. They can require actions like that if you want to continue to work for them as having a job is not a right with a company, it is a benefit that is offered.
As for Dr Suneel Dhand, I think you may want to do a little deeper research into him before holding him up as a paragon for the anti vaccinated argument.

It certainly wasn't perfect.
Show is any medication that is. If that is your requirement for efficacy and justification for use, you need to give up all medications. Because even the older herbal remedies are not. Life is full of risks. You have to measure them and decide which are within your level of acceptablity.

Meanwhile many young persons are suffering mysterious heart problems and there is little enthusiasm to investigate causes.
Please refer to my earlier post that negates your statement. There have been MORE than adequate studies that show that yes, the vaccines can cause mild myocarditis and myopericarditis in those between 15-29. Deaths from that condition were EXTREMELY rare in that age group. Deaths from Covid And as I stated, the effects from Covid amongst those that were not as severe.
There were, in the US, 8607 deaths in the 0-29 year age range of Covid (1642 0-17, 6965 17-29) as of mid 2023.
The deaths from side affects of the vaccine (specifically the heart issues you reference) were nowhere near has high.
From a JAMA study
Among persons younger than 30 years of age, there were no confirmed cases of myocarditis in those who died after mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccination without another identifiable cause and there was 1 probable case of myocarditis but there was insufficient information available for a thorough investigation. At the time of data review, there were 2 reports of death in persons younger than 30 years of age with potential myocarditis that remain under investigation and are not included in the case counts.
So, please expound further on your "fact" that there is little enthusiasm to investigate the causes.

BTW I want to draw your attention once more to the first segment of my response... you know, the one where the studies have shown that those that were NOT vaccinated had a higher incidence of myocarditis than those that were vaccinated.

Yeah, I know... those pesky little things called researched facts.... they kind of get in the way of a good story.
 

Retro

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Wow, there has been an actual Trump assassination attempt while at a rally and he's been wounded. This really could have been his downfall. Doesn't look like any members of the public have been injured, thankfully.

Shame they've shot the shooter. He got no trial, just an immediate death sentence. Would have liked to know his precise motives, rather than surmise them.

It seems curious to me that he's been shot just a few days after the corrupt Supreme Court ruled that a president has absolute immunity for "official acts". Does make me wonder if it was an official hit job in the name of national security and is a possibility I'd been thinking about ever since that ruling. We'll see as this story evolves over the coming days and weeks.

The article below has a video of the event, the exact moment he was shot.

The irony is that this news has broken while I was watching Air Force One with Harrison Ford as the president! You couldn't make this up.


Trump injured.jpg

 

Retro

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One member of the public has actually died, unfortunately. Now that sucks, really sucks.

EDIT: plus two others have been critically injured. This now sucks even more. That we have three innocent victims is not surprising when the shooter is firing towards the crowd and from 150m away, no less. What a nutcase. 😠
 

Astro What

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What an interesting turn of events. It appears that the shooter was a registered Republican, but that they also gave $15 to a Democratic aligned PAC (when he was 17 and before he was registered to vote). Wonder if he was one of those much maligned RINO's that the MAGA faithful are so derogatory towards?
 
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Geffers

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Biden apparently said there was no place for political violence in US society.

Here are some clips of Democrats actually suggesting such actions.

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