What's with the murder rampages in America lately?

Retro

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I've just come across this awful article of yet another madman murdering people by randomly shooting up a place, this time in Maryland. We've only just had the Uvalde school shooting a few weeks ago ffs - 21 people dead, with 19 of them being kids - let alone the many incidents over the years. The crazies are coming out in force.

All these terrible crimes fan the flames for more gun control in America as they should.

Personally, I think America is a fantastic country that I'd like to live in if circumstances allowed, but the level of gun crime there scares the shit out of me. I really don't need someone's moment of madness ruining my life and that of my family and friends.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of my American friends on here who have first hand experience of living with this threat.

 

Tiffany

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I've just come across this awful article of yet another madman murdering people by randomly shooting up a place, this time in Maryland. We've only just had the Uvalde school shooting a few weeks ago ffs - 21 people dead, with 19 of them being kids - let alone the many incidents over the years. The crazies are coming out in force.

All these terrible crimes fan the flames for more gun control in America as they should.

Personally, I think America is a fantastic country that I'd like to live in if circumstances allowed, but the level of gun crime there scares the shit out of me. I really don't need someone's moment of madness ruining my life and that of my family and friends.

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of my American friends on here who have first hand experience of living with this threat.


I understand your fears, me too, as a US citizen. There's a massive amount of tension in the US, lots of anger and now with the economies potential collapse by a long recession, people are getting scared and desperate.

The Second Amendment of the United States, gives citizens of the United States:

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms.....

My response: The Second Amendment does not give people the right to kill indiscriminately.

I'm glad you've reached out on this serious topic and as an American, I will do my best to share in an honest discourse with facts, news and personal observation.
 

Arantor

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The second amendment doesn't give the right to bear arms. The second amendment says that the right for people to have arms should not be restricted (sonething totally different) for the purposes of having militias in lieu of modern police forces.

Since there are police forces, there are no militias, since there are no militias, there is no clause defending rights restrictions in the constitution...

#spicyhottake
 

Tiffany

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@Arantor my apologies for not being specific in the interest of time. When I went to the US government website for the amendments I should have provided a link along with the full amendment in proper context. I understand specificity is important.
 

Arantor

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I wasn't trying to disprove what you were saying - what you're saying is also 100% absolutely correct. The 2A absolutely does not give people permission to randomly shoot each other! It's just that there is a lot of misplaced belief in what it *does* give people and "hurr durr second amendment ma guns" isn't it and I'm tired of this being a belief that people take from it and then propagate as a myth that isn't true. (This is not what you did. I'm sorry if I came across all shouty, it's been a long day, I'm angry for a lot of reasons and I'd like not to pick more fights today.)
 

Tiffany

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I wasn't trying to disprove what you were saying - what you're saying is also 100% absolutely correct. The 2A absolutely does not give people permission to randomly shoot each other! It's just that there is a lot of misplaced belief in what it *does* give people and "hurr durr second amendment ma guns" isn't it and I'm tired of this being a belief that people take from it and then propagate as a myth that isn't true. (This is not what you did. I'm sorry if I came across all shouty, it's been a long day, I'm angry for a lot of reasons and I'd like not to pick more fights today.)
It's all good!! πŸ˜‡ I respect what you have to say and your wisdom. Your online presence is an asset to anyone that has a privilege to be able to write with you!

.....and agreed, there are a lot of misinterpretation of laws and it's exhausting....

My day is rather short today as I have to leave and go to see my mom. I will try to thoughtfully reply over the weekend.

I hope your day gets better!!
 

Retro

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Thanks for your replies people. Clearly no right-minded person wants to see such proliferation of guns in the wrong hands as the terrible consequences are plain for all to see.

It sounds like the original intention of the amendment was a noble one and of its time when it might have made more sense 200 years ago. However, it's clearly being misused at a large scale by those who just want to have guns. Of course, the crazies don't give a damn about any usage restrictions and seem happy to die by the gun at these scenes, just as long as they inflict some awful suffering and death first, then they can cross that off their bucket list.

Makes my blood boil just writing that last sentence, but unfortunately it's true. πŸ˜₯

Finally, there's no difference between this and murder by terrorism for religious and / or political reasons. It's just another form of terrorism by the mentally unhinged. Apologies to the many people with mental health issues who are not murderous, I don't mean you.
 

wolfdeer

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Thanks for your replies people. Clearly no right-minded person wants to see such proliferation of guns in the wrong hands as the terrible consequences are plain for all to see.

It sounds like the original intention of the amendment was a noble one and of its time when it might have made more sense 200 years ago. However, it's clearly being misused at a large scale by those who just want to have guns. Of course, the crazies don't give a damn about any usage restrictions and seem happy to die by the gun at these scenes, just as long as they inflict some awful suffering and death first, then they can cross that off their bucket list.

Makes my blood boil just writing that last sentence, but unfortunately it's true. πŸ˜₯

Finally, there's no difference between this and murder by terrorism for religious and / or political reasons. It's just another form of terrorism by the mentally unhinged. Apologies to the many people with mental health issues who are not murderous, I don't mean you.
I 100% agree with all that you've said.

We can't stop murder because of this imperfect world we live in, but we can do what we can to prevent mass murder, and that may not be by banning guns completely. Drugs are illegal but people still buy and sell. Maybe we need to offer better security in schools, or help for the mentally unstable (as @Retro said above: not everyone with mental health problems is even capable of murder).
 

MeetNGreet

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2A is fundamentally about keeping the government in check and allowing citizens to enforce those boundaries if exceeded.

The classic response to this is..gov has tanks, F-16s, nukes, military, etc. For all our billions in war technology, it utterly failed against a bunch of people in robes and armed with (actual) AKs in Afghanistan and Iraq.

A well-put extract from Japan Times reader mail:

"As Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto was supposed to have said, β€œI would never invade America, there is a gun behind every blade of grass.” This was a serious consideration of the Soviets as well years later. The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution gives us the right to speak out, to question the assumptions and statements of others, including our government. The Second Amendment gives us the power to defend those questions even if the government doesn’t like them."

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. [...] the right of the citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government and one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible.”
Rep. Hubert H. Humphrey

β€œArms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of a free man from a slave.”
Andrew Fletcher

β€œA militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves... and include all men capable of bearing arms.”
Richard Henry Lee
 

Retro

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We can't stop murder because of this imperfect world we live in, but we can do what we can to prevent mass murder, and that may not be by banning guns completely.
Indeed, there's a delicate balance here that's unfortunately completey screwed up due to the powerful NRA gun lobby.

For example, someone said after the Uvalde school shooting that schools should be armed so that they can defend themselves, as otherwise look at what happens, but not the general public. That someone was Donald Trump and as much as I despise that guy for what he's done with the Jan 6 insurrection and a zillion other things and hate to agree with him on anything, I think he's right on this one. Basically, "responsible bodies" should have them while "irresponsible bodies" such as the general public shouldn't. Of course, people are gonna have illegal guns, so there's still a requirement for organisations to be able to defend themselves.
 

wolfdeer

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I think he's right on this one. Basically, "responsible bodies" should have them while "irresponsible bodies" such as the general public shouldn't. Of course, people are gonna have illegal guns, so there's still a requirement for organisations to be able to defend themselves.
I agree.
 

Retro

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This is hardly surprising and very understandable and I hope it starts to make a difference eventually. Those Republicans are really obstructive, though.

@MeetNGreet Welcome to NerdZone. :)

Tens of thousands of protesters have rallied across the US to call for stricter gun laws in the wake of two mass shootings.
Those taking part at the hundreds of marches carried slogans like "I want freedom from getting shot".
US President Joe Biden backed the protests, calling on Congress to "pass common sense gun safety legislation".
Despite this the chances of legal change are likely to be quashed by Republicans.

 

MeetNGreet

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This is hardly surprising and very understandable and I hope it starts to make a difference eventually. Those Republicans are really obstructive, though.

@MeetNGreet Welcome to NerdZone. :)



Thanks for the welcome!

I would venture to guess that the vast majority of these protestors have never owned or even trained on a firearm. Now that doesn't make their opinion less than, however, it does give off vibes of "ambulance chasing." New York, Chicago, LA, Fresno, Portland, Baltimore.. the list goes on and on where gangbangers shoot each other and civilians with illegal firearms all..the..time, but it doesn't receive the same media coverage or passion as gun grabbing after a sensationalized mass shooting.
 

Retro

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Thanks for the welcome!

I would venture to guess that the vast majority of these protestors have never owned or even trained on a firearm. Now that doesn't make their opinion less than, however, it does give off vibes of "ambulance chasing." New York, Chicago, LA, Fresno, Portland, Baltimore.. the list goes on and on where gangbangers shoot each other and civilians with illegal firearms all..the..time, but it doesn't receive the same media coverage or passion as gun grabbing after a sensationalized mass shooting.
"Normal" one-on-one gun crime is bad enough, but I guess it's kinda routine so doesn't generate the same headlines. However, there's something particularly gross when 19 little kids die at the hands of a deranged madman for no reason, so I think that deserves the headlines and the activism.

I get that gun ownership and control is a massive grey area though, which is what makes it a good topic of conversation. I don't claim to have a silver bullet solution for it, but I do think greater restrictions on ownership and vetting would help.
 

Tiffany

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Getting back to core family values would be a significant improvement in the overall human equation. There have been too many forces in America that have caused division.

My thoughts of what all schools can do and should have been doing all along:
Add camera's on all access points; cameras to view panoramic areas of ingress and egress areas.
Ingress and Egress- address all of the access points vulnerabilities.
Add armed security- add human assets, those trained officers that carry.

There are real solutions to protecting our future generations but people from all sides of the political spectrum need to put down their biased partisan agenda's to have a very real conversation. I'm not sure our current political environment can do that? I hope there will be some sensible people that can bring real change, and not change that fits an agenda, change that is thoughtful and change that makes sense.
 

Retro

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Getting back to core family values would be a significant improvement in the overall human equation. There have been too many forces in America that have caused division.

My thoughts of what all schools can do and should have been doing all along:
Add camera's on all access points; cameras to view panoramic areas of ingress and egress areas.
Ingress and Egress- address all of the access points vulnerabilities.
Add armed security- add human assets, those trained officers that carry.


There are real solutions to protecting our future generations but people from all sides of the political spectrum need to put down their biased partisan agenda's to have a very real conversation. I'm not sure our current political environment can do that? I hope there will be some sensible people that can bring real change, and not change that fits an agenda, change that is thoughtful and change that makes sense.
Agreed with everything and I think the bold bit is a great idea. If Biden can find $40bn for Ukraine, I'm sure it's possible to fund this for every American school. Political will is the obstacle, unfortunately.
 

Retro

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Well, this is better than nothing. Let's hope the trickle becomes a tsunami.

US gun control: Cross-party group of senators agrees limited safety measures

A cross-party group of US senators say they have agreed a framework for potential legislation on gun safety.
The measures would include support for tougher background checks for buyers under the age of 21 and cracking down on illegal gun purchases.
But they fall far short of President Joe Biden's calls for change.
Tens of thousands of protesters rallied across the US on Saturday to call for stricter gun laws in the wake of two mass shootings.
Nineteen children and two adults were killed in the 24 May shooting at Robb Elementary in Uvalde, Texas.
That attack, and another days earlier in Buffalo, New York, in which 10 people were killed, led to renewed calls for action on gun control in the US.

 

Tiffany

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Agreed with everything and I think the bold bit is a great idea. If Biden can find $40bn for Ukraine, I'm sure it's possible to fund this for every American school. Political will is the obstacle, unfortunately.

Your comment deserves a bowing smilie!! A fist bump will have to do 🀝
 

Tiffany

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Arantor

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See, I'm honestly not convinced this part is a good idea. I hate that I'm even thinking it but that's what it is.

Remember, part of what feeds this is infamy. The glorification of it on the 24 hour news cycle. Going down in immortality, of one fashion or another. Putting cameras up *helps that along* because the news channels will absolutely feature the footage if they can get their hands on it, and/or it'll end up on YouTube because that's unfortunately what happens.

I am also slightly hesitant towards the thinking of 'core family values' because while it's absolutely well-intentioned, I'm not sure it's necessarily helpful because whenever I hear that phrase, I'm reminded of things like 'the nuclear family unit' with the father who goes out to work and earns all the money, the dutiful mother who stays at home tending to the children and housework/cooking/cleaning/etc and the thinking that goes with trying to reassert 1950s values, especially given the moves currently afoot in the various states to push back on abortion rights (which, ultimately, do nothing for sanctity of life and just endanger womens' lives, but that's the point)

The mum/dad/2.4 kids and a dog with white picket fence isn't how families are these days. We're moving beyond the traditional views as people start to figure out their deal. The old labels, the old conformist buckets don't really apply and trying to push that agenda isn't going to go well, not long term.

What is absolutely clear is that there is a mental health crisis ongoing. It shouldn't be normal for someone to wake up and go 'I'm going to walk into a place with a lot of people and shoot them'. Even putting aside the relative ease of access to weapons, this sort of thinking is fundamentally a sign that people need help. The world doesn't make sense, people are so disenfranchised that this is now something to do about it.

As for Biden finding money for Ukraine, that's a separate argument but let's just keep it at 'if you're paying a military force to avoid WWIII, does it really matter which one as long as it's not an enemy?'
 

Tiffany

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@Arantor I agree with you that the idea of the nuclear family does not fit in today's meaning of family. I should have been more clear in acknowledging that family values are simply that and not meant to only apply to the out dated nuclear family definition, but to apply to whatever makes a family; that's a family. People need mentors and other people to look up to or to lean on in tough times. There appears to be a lot of lost people without a support system.
 

Arantor

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People need mentors and other people to look up to or to lean on in tough times. There appears to be a lot of lost people without a support system.

THIS. SO much this. The people going out and committing these acts of utter barbarity do so because they don't have a support system that would have prevented this.

They used to say it took a village to raise a child, they weren't wrong. Everyone needs someone and we forget this.
 

Retro

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Whenever I think of the "nuclear family", I think of them literally blowing up like a nuclear bomb. :ROFLMAO: Oh dear.

What is absolutely clear is that there is a mental health crisis ongoing. It shouldn't be normal for someone to wake up and go 'I'm going to walk into a place with a lot of people and shoot them'. Even putting aside the relative ease of access to weapons, this sort of thinking is fundamentally a sign that people need help. The world doesn't make sense, people are so disenfranchised that this is now something to do about it.
I think anyone that can do this is a psychopath. If they have a hard life, it would simply motivate them to do this kind of thing even more. Would a "support system" curb this? I'm not so sure.

Since psychopathy can't be cured and is frankly evil, in my view, there's only one solution for psychos: lock them up until they die as all they tend to do is make the lives of other people miserable for their own personal gain and satisfaction.

I've read quite a lot about this personality type and over the years, I've met at least two people who were bad news, one of them being a high level manager several levels above my manager, that I worked for (thankully now long left) who I suspect are psychopaths. The other was a colleague in the same workplace, but at an earlier time.

Absolutely ruthless with a total lack of empathy and if they set their sights on you, they're gonna do whatever they can to bring you down and ruin your life. Horrible people and given my experience, I think my opinion on what to do with them has some merit.
 

Arantor

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Since psychopathy can't be cured and is frankly evil, in my view, there's only one solution for psychos: lock them up until they die as all they tend to do is make the lives of other people miserable for their own personal gain and satisfaction.

Given that between 1% and 4% (studies vary) of CEOs of companies exhibit signs of psychopathy this would be an interesting situation to set in motion.

I would submit that psychopathy as a fundamental personality trait on its own is not *dangerous*, because on its own it's not about throwing people under the bus. It's simply a disconnect from everyone else - deficiency in the emotional handling. But like any other disconnect from 'the normal', it's actually manageable.

It's when you combine it with the other elements of the dark triad that things get complicated - psychopathy, narcissism and Machiavellism together are a problem. But most 'psychopaths' aren't actually like that, and odds are you probably know people who would qualify as actual psychopaths. I do, I've worked for people who absolutely qualify for a diagnosis of such, such as my armchair PhD qualifies me to cover, but they didn't have all the dark triad traits.
 
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