The Trump downfall thread

Retro

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It's concerning how big American tech companies are gravitating towards Trump, especially Elon Musk who is said to be donating $45m a month to the campaign, which he denies. I think this is likely to be the key reason:

Self-interest in Silicon Valley

Democrats said the shift in the tech world has been motivated by self-interest, noting that Mr Biden has proposed new taxes on multi-millionaires and unrealised capital gains.

He has also alienated some with his embrace of organised labour, and his administration's pursuit of tech companies in anti-monopoly and other cases.

Businessman Mark Cuban, who supports Democrats, suggested that the gravitation towards Trump was a "bitcoin play" - a bet that cryptocurrency value could be boosted by high inflation and political chaos that Democrats say would result under a Trump administration.

 

Retro

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This is a nice opinion piece on how Trump and his cronies are now running scared. 😁

The Republicans are floundering after Joe Biden got dumped. A near faultless campaign blitz by Kamala Harris has liberated the Democratic Party from its funk and sent the Republicans into a doom spiral. Donald Trump can’t stop whining about the unfairness of it all. “They stole the race from Biden after he won in the primaries — A First!” he raged on social media. “These people are the real THREAT TO DEMOCRACY.”

If you say so, grandpa.

 

Retro

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Interesting since the wound does suggest that the bullet grazed Trump's ear. Will be interesting to see if they can determine this definitively.

FBI Director Christopher Wray revealed during a marathon testimony on Wednesday that investigators still do not know if former President Donald Trump was grazed by a bullet or a piece of shrapnel during his attempted assassination.

Twice during the hours-long session, Wray told lawmakers that the FBI was still working to determine what exactly struck the former president on his right ear during a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania. “My understanding is that either it [a bullet] or some shrapnel is what grazed his ear,” Wray told Rep. Kevin Kiley (R-CA).

 

live627

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So now this despicable three letter alphabet agency is feeding the narrative that the shooting was somehow fake or staged. Keep cooking. Seems like confusing we the people is part of their MO.
 

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Oh come on, it's not "despicable" and it's not faking anything. They're just investigating what happened.

If they think it might have been shrapnel, then they've got good reason to. They're not saying he didn't get shot at, are they?
 

Astro What

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That is a round passing.... but that does not equate to what hit his ear. If it had, at the spead it was going you would see signs of tumbling as the flight path would have been altered from the flesh. Something as simple as a leaf can divert a high speed round.
But once the shooter saw he missed, he probably did what will do when they know that their end is near and they did not succeed... start pulling the trigger.
And yes, shrapnel from a round can cause injury if you are near it.
And from looking at this, unless it caught the VERY edge of his ear, he didn't get hit by a bullet traveling 3180fps (that's 2168MPH or 3499kph). This looks a LOT more like shrapnel injury. At that velocity, you would expect to see a LOT more tearing and splatter if it was an actual round impact (this is from someone that has hunted for 5 1/2 decades and has actually been involved with dealing with people shot as well as doing the shooting). If your ear got torn/impacted by a high velocity round you would also expect a LOT more blood.

Screen Shot 2024-07-26 at 1.00.04 AM.png Screen Shot 2024-07-26 at 1.07.58 AM.png

I'm not saying Trump is lying about being shot... he probably thought he was. I also imagine that he also had to get a new pair of under-roos and pants after this happened. The impact of shrapnel can almost feel like a gunshot impact. Or at least a 9mm round hitting cinderblock wall above my head had me concerned one night.


And AFAIK they aren't saying it was faked/staged... that's coming from the conspiracy nuts that MGT follows.
 
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Mars

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@Astro What. I am looking at that photo of the bullet's flight path, and see it was at Trump's left side, yet he was hit on his right ear, which leads me to believe that this is the flight path before the bullet had hit anything at all.

Now looking at the video of the scene of the shooting, we see from the explanatory diagram, that the position of the shooter, on the rooftop, was in fact, to the left of Trump, where Trump was standing facing the bleachers.
No way could a shooter standing to the left of a three-dimensional target, hit the right side of said target.

You know, funny that you should say it may not have been a bullet that hit him after all. I thought the same; I wondered how it was possible for a round from a high velocity rifle to inflict such minor damage, even if just 'grazing' the flesh?
Would it not completely disintegrate the flesh it came in contact with? Like, Trump would have ended up with an ear with a bit of it missing, no?
We do not see any 'flutter' in the flight path, which would have indicated the bullet coming into contact with some object.
As you say, even a leaf could divert a high speed round, causing minute alterations to its flight path.
But as the flight path does not display any tumbling, the only explanation is that the bullet had never hit its intended target: Trump's head.

It is therefore feasible that the bullet, which was aimed at Trump's head, had completely missed him. It hit elsewhere on the right of the intended head. All that Trump was actually hit by, was a little old shrapnel.
A mild token of the deadly missile which was intended to end his life.
 

Astro What

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I am looking at that photo of the bullet's flight path, and see it was at Trump's left side, yet he was hit on his right ear, which leads me to believe that this is the flight path before the bullet had hit anything at all.
The shooting was from his right. That path is after it passed behind his head and continued on towards the left side (as he was standing) of the platform.
As he turned his read to the right to look at a display to "make a point", from what I understand, is when the shots started. If he had not turned his head, it is very likely that round would have impacted him. At the velocity that round was traveling it doesn't take much to move it from it's trajectory. And with the speed that frame was, if it had hit his ear you would also see some material splatter following behind it.


Screen Shot 2024-07-26 at 12.28.56 PM.png

The base trajectory is consistent with someone trying to take out the "main motor" junction of a human, the medulla oblongata. In the rifle course I went through, we were taught if we ever had a shot there to take it as it would shut the target down immediately as it cut all communications from the brain to the body.

Now looking at the video of the scene of the shooting, we see from the explanatory diagram, that the position of the shooter, on the rooftop, was in fact, to the left of Trump, where Trump was standing facing the bleachers.
No way could a shooter standing to the left of a three-dimensional target, hit the right side of said target.
No, the counter snipers were to Trumps left... the shooter was to Trumps right. Trump would be facing out to the open area of the field, not back towards the buildings, which is the way he would have to be if the shooter was on his left. In fact, remember, Trump was rushed off the right side of the stage as you looked at it, which would be Trumps left, which the image below clearly shows the positioning of that evacuation point.
So the right side of the head would be the correct impact point unless Trump did a 180° turn on stage, which he did not do.

Screen Shot 2024-07-26 at 12.33.39 PM.png


You know, funny that you should say it may not have been a bullet that hit him after all. I thought the same; I wondered how it was possible for a round from a high velocity rifle to inflict such minor damage, even if just 'grazing' the flesh?

That was my point. I've worked several cases in my years and usually a grazing impact on a human body results in severe tearing of the skin. Even those that were "kissed" by it have noticeable damage. Usually the time you see minimal wounding on the impact point is when it is a main body hit or a smaller/slower caliber in a major muscle mass. But generally with a high velocity round the exit point in that main body mass is noticeable due to the yawing of the bullet.
This is also consistent when hunting. Seen many a deer "kissed" on the back by someone shooting to high the first shot and then getting on target the second shot. Those "kisses" along the top of the back usually ruin the tenderloin because of the tissue damage (that is not immediately fatal to the deer).

It is therefore feasible that the bullet, which was aimed at Trump's head, had completely missed him. It hit elsewhere on the right of the intended head. All that Trump was actually hit by, was a little old shrapnel.

It's more likely that was the first round and the other rounds tracked backwards towards the stage and one impacted a stand or something on the stage and caused fragmentation.

It is entirely possible that one of the rounds impacted one of the screens that are typically in front and to the sides of him (they may be a form of teleprompter) from an over-correction to the right.

Screen Shot 2024-07-26 at 12.52.12 PM.png

I noticed that the one on the right of him was still standing upright, but the one on the left was not in view. Typically there is one to each side as in the image above. Without being on scene, I can't say if the one on the left was knocked down in the rush to get to him or if it suffered an impact, as I don't have access to that evidence.
But I can say that the pulling like that is very typical of someone that is not experienced in shooting living/moving targets and then panicking when the first round misses and trying to get back on target. I would not be surprised if the first round did not pass behind Trump when he turned his head (would have been on if he had not moved), shooter then panicked and over-corrected to the right, impacting the screen which fragmented, panicked further and pulled WAY to much to the left and just started pulling the trigger since he knew his opportunity was shot (pardon the pun) at getting back on target now so he wanted to do as much damage as possible.

And this would be consistent when you realize that the deceased and injured were higher in the stands, which would be consistent with the shooter pulling to the left for some reason.
This is the zone of the bleachers where the injured were. If you notice, they would be on the left side of Trump (as you faced him) or to the right of Trump as he was facing outward. They are also at a higher elevation, which would be consistent with the shooter pulling his rounds to the left.

Screen Shot 2024-07-26 at 12.49.44 PM.png

The main point remains though, whether he was hit by shrapnel or by an actual round, it was an attempt on his life.
As for Trumps opinion that it was actually a bullet... how much experience does he have with guns, shooting living objects, seeing the results of shootings and being shot? Remember, this is someone who would normally claim there were 30,000-40,000 people present in his venues, ones that can only contain between 3000-5000 people. Trump has a history of lying/exaggerating to try to make himself appear more important/liked than he is.
 
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Mars

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yap, that parody is spot on, it's a good one all right.

Regarding that bullet? There are several reconstructions of the shooting scene, the one I saw it looked like the shooter was on his left, but from the one you posted, it seems he was on his right. Your elucidation of the facts is quite thorough. And of course I am in agreement that a high velocity round would have inflicted a much greater damage then that little old graze. It was a shrapnel alright.

What is so frustrating is the fact that the shooter was so summarily felled. As I believe Retro had said earlier, the shooter could have easily been just incapacitated and taken alive. No doubt about that. But they did not want the canary to sing.

Whatever the case may be, one thing is for sure, it was an attempt on his life, and Trump knows it.
And you never know, there may still be another round lying somewhere, quietly waiting, with Trump's name on it....
 

Astro What

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Regarding that bullet? There are several reconstructions of the shooting scene, the one I saw it looked like the shooter was on his left, but from the one you posted, it seems he was on his right.

Left and right are a matter of your position to Trump. If you are behind him, it is to the right. If you are facing him from the crowd, it is to the left. You first have to have a fixed basis for determining when someone says right/left, and those are usually using fixed objects (the buildings behind him). Just like in accident/event reconstruction, you take your measurements from something that is not very likely to be moved/removed/destroyed in the next decade or so like a light standard, a manhole cover center and such.

What is so frustrating is the fact that the shooter was so summarily felled. As I believe Retro had said earlier, the shooter could have easily been just incapacitated and taken alive. No doubt about that. But they did not want the canary to sing.
Incorrect assumption... you are trained to stop the dangerous activity. Shooting to wound is NEVER taught. You shoot to stop the aggressive action. And in this case, from what I have seen the only available target was the top of his head. So, that's where you place your round. Just so happens that's also where snipers are trained to shoot anyway as once they get involved, you want the situation ended immediately.

The longer he was left up there with a firearm with at LEAST 20 rounds in it the more people he could have injured.
But your thought position is standard amongst those that have not been trained in how to stop aggression.... and that's not something that is right/wrong, but it does cause issues because you always hear "Well, they could have shot him in the leg/arm to wound him". Real life doesn't work that way.
I worked one officer involved shooting in which the offender took over 20 rounds to the torso from 9mm and a few .375 magnum and was still running with his machete. What stopped him was the .357 125gr JHP to the forehead. Turn out the lights, the party is over has real meaning.
 

Retro

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@Mars @Astro What Regarding what actually injured Trump's ear, I think it's very unlikely to have been the bullet in that picture, because as you say AW, there's no tumbling or blood spatter at that point. Incredible photo though, wow.

The shooter fired several rounds, so whether his ear was directly injured by one of those bullets or shrapnel isn't 100% clear at this point, and is why the FBI are investigating. Couple of points about this:
  1. Whether it was a bullet or shrapnel that caused the injury to Trump's ear I believe is academic since the important point is that this was an assassination attempt and the Secret Service were inadequate at protecting him in this instance.
  2. If shrapnel, then where did the bullet strike to cause it? I can't see anything near Trump that it could have hit to create it. Any ideas? This therefore suggests to me that it was a direct bullet strike. I'll be leaving it to the ballistics experts to determine this one, however.
 

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@Astro What, the picture in your post #884 was what I've been looking for. I watched Sid Miller (Texas Agriculture Commissioner) interviewed days ago and he said he was below Corey Comperatore when he was shot, hero of a man saving his family. When you see the shots happen, very few people in the stands drop and take cover and most just get back up to see what happened. It's been perplexing to me to get a fix on where Mr. Comperatore was sitting while comparing the bullet trajectory origin to fatal target.
 

Astro What

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Generally... follow the fall pattern of the body, especially if in bleachers like that. If you fall to the right of where you are sitting, impact came from left. If you fall to the left, it generally came from the right.
Even if someone is next to you, when a person leans into them, they lean away unless it's a SO, so the fall pattern will be fairly consistent. And then when you add the spraying blood on top of that, even SO's will move away at first, then may go back towards the person.

As for the actions of folks around them... not unusual and especially with the type of crowd that was present.
 

Tiffany

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Generally... follow the fall pattern of the body, especially if in bleachers like that. If you fall to the right of where you are sitting, impact came from left. If you fall to the left, it generally came from the right.
Even if someone is next to you, when a person leans into them, they lean away unless it's a SO.
As for the actions of folks around them... not unusual and especially with the type of crowd that was present.

Yes, basically, it's simple physics then with the fall from an incoming bullet. That makes sense. I also wondered about the forensics that was done on Trumps ear, if any. At least if I was there, I'd be swabbing that blood and testing it for lead or any other type of foreign substance.

I was astonished at the reactionary behavior of those people in the bleachers. People have become a danger to themselves wanting to capture moments for social media purposes at the behest of fatal injury to themselves.
 

Astro What

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I also wondered about the forensics that was done on Trumps ear, if any. At least if I was there, I'd be swabbing that blood and testing it for lead or any other type of foreign substance.
It should have been done as well as all medical "waste" (bandages, cleaning materials, etc) should have been preserved... but I seriously doubt that the Secret Service protective agents did that, as investigations are not a primary duty of theirs and many of them cold not investigate themselves out of a paper sack from my few interactions with them. Now, the other departments in the SS have better investigatory skills, but protective agents are not really that worried about that.
Then you have the issue with Trump probably trying to run the show and getting into it trying to be Inspector Gadget.

I was astonished at the reactionary behavior of those people in the bleachers. People have become a danger to themselves wanting to capture moments for social media purposes at the behest of fatal injury to themselves.
Darwinism in action. If you don't have a way to project force back at an attacker, all the idiots think now is "can I get that special shot that will give me my 5 minutes of fame", not thinking (maybe until later) about how stupid that was.
 

live627

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I was astonished at the reactionary behavior of those people in the bleachers. People have become a danger to themselves wanting to capture moments for social media purposes at the behest of fatal injury to themselves.
What's the alternative A stampede? That will result in mass panic, injuries by both fall and crush damage, and possibly death.
 

Retro

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Oh yeah, the gunman was to his left alright.

Also, the FBI determined that it was a bullet that caused the injury and not shrapnel:

The FBI said Friday that Donald Trump was hit by a bullet, or a fragment from one, fired by the would-be assassin at his Pennsylvania rally earlier this month.

“What struck former President Trump in the ear was a bullet, whether whole or fragmented into smaller pieces, fired from the deceased subject’s rifle,” the bureau said in a statement.

The department’s confirmation Friday that the former president was struck in the ear by a bullet marks its latest attempt to quell a political uproar. The new statement is the most direct yet from federal law enforcement about Trump’s injury, though it changes little in practical terms.

Some law enforcement officials – including FBI Director Christopher Wray – have previously said publicly that it was unclear whether Trump was hit by a bullet or by shrapnel, which is a fragmented piece of ammunition. Other officials questioned whether Trump had been struck by a bullet at all, or whether he was hit by a piece of glass or even injured while falling down.

 

Mars

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...........The longer he was left up there with a firearm with at LEAST 20 rounds in it the more people he could have injured.
But your thought position is standard amongst those that have not been trained in how to stop aggression.... and that's not something that is right/wrong, but it does cause issues because you always hear "Well, they could have shot him in the leg/arm to wound him". Real life doesn't work that way.
I worked one officer involved shooting in which the offender took over 20 rounds to the torso from 9mm and a few .375 magnum and was still running with his machete. What stopped him was the .357 125gr JHP to the forehead. Turn out the lights, the party is over has real meaning.
ok then. I guess that being armed the way he was, killing him was probably the only option; besides, he took a life and wounded others, who knows what else he could have done.

Now, would you say that after he missed T, did he shoot at random, to take it out on any of Trump's supporters? I mean, he probably knew from the get-go that he was doomed, what great hatred drove him to this act....

You see, that's what bugs me, that we know zilch about him, who he was, who sent him, sane?insane? who knows, and I bet we shall never know either. I bet they are making their enquiries but the results will be kept under wraps.
 

Retro

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You see, that's what bugs me, that we know zilch about him, who he was, who sent him, sane?insane? who knows, and I bet we shall never know either. I bet they are making their enquiries but the results will be kept under wraps
Yeah, as soon as they'd killed him I figured we'll never know his motives and so it's proving to be. Frustrating for me, too.

I wonder if someone put him up to it and it's therefore terribly convenient that he's dead. I have no evidence, just a suspicion given what's been reported about him.
 

Astro What

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What's the alternative A stampede? That will result in mass panic, injuries by both fall and crush damage, and possibly death.
That's the normal action. Most people RUN from danger. Those that are trained to react to it take cover and usually you see them grabbing for a weapon probably is not there.
It's like in the wild... the predator comes, the smart animals run... the dumb ones lolly-gag around.
 

Astro What

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Also, the FBI determined that it was a bullet that caused the injury and not shrapnel:
Hehehehe... what do you think a bullet fragment is? It is also shrapnel!
The issue is that saying shrapnel makes it seem less dangerous (to the layman) that what it was. Shrapnel, depending on the size and velocity, can be as deadly as the round.
But it sounds better for Trump to say he got hit by a bullet. It's all optics.
 

Astro What

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Now, would you say that after he missed T, did he shoot at random, to take it out on any of Trump's supporters? I mean, he probably knew from the get-go that he was doomed, what great hatred drove him to this act....
If he did like most new hunters do, he overcompensated in his aim and started pulling the trigger to get rounds downrange in the hope that one hit.
I've seen it time and time again with new hunters that have a semi-automatic rifle. It's one reason I recommend that new hunters either have a single shot break-action rifle, a bolt action or lever action. They don't have the tendency to fire rounds downrange as fast as a semi-auto shooter does.

You see, that's what bugs me, that we know zilch about him, who he was, who sent him, sane?insane? who knows, and I bet we shall never know either. I bet they are making their enquiries but the results will be kept under wraps.
That's the same way with several other mass shooters. They never found a "reason". Not everyone publishes a manifesto or soliloquy on the internet.
And I bet that what they know gets published.... because what do they have to gain from hiding it, especially in this case. The guy was a registered Republican that also gave to the Democrats before he was old enough to vote. Of course, there will always be those that read conspiracy into things if they don't get the answer they expected or there is not one, thinking that the information is being hidden.

I pushed a badge long enough to realize that sometimes you simply don't get all the answers.
 
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